The only way Andrea is moved is if he is a total flop next year with Casey. I'm actually rooting for his success because if Casey can get through to him in the other well known areas (effort, rebounding, help) and solid (or at least average) team defense can be achieved with him on the court, Bargnani is a definite asset and piece moving forward. Keep in mind while I am rooting for success that doesn't necessarily mean I believe it will happen - but I really would like to be proven wrong.
One other player that has been forgotten is Alabi. He is a true C - something Amir and ED are not. Casey told him before the lockout he could end up being the starting C for the Raps this year.
Yes ... I completely forgot about Alabi. At worst, he's our 4th Big. As we found out last year, 4 Bigs is an absolute minimum. A guy like JJ or Kleiza could provide additional support (in a limited capacity), if we ever experience what we did last year.One other player that has been forgotten is Alabi. He is a true C - something Amir and ED are not. Casey told him before the lockout he could end up being the starting C for the Raps this year.
If Alabi should leap to the Starting role - in a reasonably effective way - Davis will end up being moved faster than we think. Or at least I had thought.
Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Wed Nov 2nd, 2011 at 04:47 PM.
Besides, I think you vastly underestimate Amir's impact on the offensive end. While he will never be a great scorer, and isn't very good at creating his own shot, he doesn't have to. What he does well is play off others. And he scores efficiently and he moves very well without the ball and that makes him very dangerous. Now, I'm not saying he's an All-Star, and I think he's best suited to a bench role, but I can definitely see him being a starter on a contender.
Besides, there's no reason, from what I've seen, to believe that Valanciunas WON'T be a good scorer in the NBA. He's showed much better offensive skills when given the chance than previously thought.
Amir's biggest strength is that he helps you win. While he's not a lockdown defender or much of a scorer, when he's on the floor, he is incredibly productive and simply helps your team win. And, in the end, it's not how multi-faceted or how much a player can score that's important. It's the effect he has when he's on the court.
Not every GM can swing a KG steal. If you can, all the better I guess.
Besides, last time I checked, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan (if you count him as a center), David Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Abdul-Jabar, among others, were all All-Defensive centers who also scored 20+ ppg.
Bargnani, for all his offensive skills, has never shown he actually helps your team win. Not in five years. Davis is the type of player that usually ends up winning a Championship. It's not a difficult choice to me.
However to me, that's putting some serious hope onto a player, that really hasn't played an NBA level of competition. I'd hate to see fans expect far more from him, than what I'd hope he can be. Otherwise he'll get run out of town.
My preference is to develop a core and hope we snag that elusive player from amongst the existing picks, coming picks, lucky picks, a trade (long shot), free agency (even longer shot), or wherever else we can find him.
Waiting for that Star is what we did with Bosh - although I'd argue he isn't the kind of Star I want. If we have a competitive team (with some good players - even inflated players), other teams will notice, and our odds of snagging someone (or a potential draft pick) will increase. I completely disagree with Star first, team second. How's that got us, or Cleveland.
In some ways, I'd ask why we can't attempt another Detroit style team. People argue it was a rare occurrence, but if one reviews the past Championship teams, winning is a rarity for most of the league.
But I digress - plus I don't want this to be about Andrea. Haven't we talked ad nausea about him.
What I believe, is that talent begets talent. It's how you arrange it, that makes one successful. You can't argue that Raptors have most of their talent in Bigs. So it stands to reason that one has to be moved (when Jonas gets here), and the most productive means (in getting good return), is the guy who you'd probably wish could stay. That's how sports work - even though it sucks. I've always felt we move our draft picks out (too soon), but sometimes you have to bite the bullet, if you're hoping to continue that build.
To me, teams would salivate over Ed Davis. If BC can jump on some drooling GM, and make the team more balanced .... I say - why not?
I'm tired of building .... and building ... and building. Last I heard, building meant you were moving up - not lateral. You think that doesn't include Andrea. I don't agree.
But I do agree I like debating with you. lol
A lesser center who was a great defensive player but also scored 20+ ppg was Alonzo Mourning.
And what the Detroit-style backers never seem to realize is that you've got a better chance of drafting an elite player than you do of winning a Championship without one.
You also have to realize that Detroit got to where they did by having a great defensive core. They didn't have any weak links on the defensive end. So if you're going to pick players on the Raptors who should become core players on a Detroit-style team, Bargnani certainly cannot be included. In fact the only two teams in the last 30 years (or probably more) that didn't have a First Team All-NBA player on it were the last two Champions from Detroit. And they both won by having great defensive players.
To me, there are 4 players that I would try to hold onto if I could. In order, Valanciunas, Davis, Amir and DeRozan (who must show improvement on the defensive end this year to remain on the list). Now if a better option at their position comes along (like if the Raptors drafted Anthony Davis or Andre Drummond, for example) then they become expendable.
Bargnani is certainly not going to fetch as much as Davis will, but with a trio of Davis, Valanciunas and Amir, you're not going to have any big questions about your front line. Teams aren't going to be able to take advantage of a weakness in that lineup. While neither Davis nor Amir will probably end up being big scorers, they're not going to hurt you on that end. Teams daring them to score (a la Ben Wallace) are going to pay for it.
With Bargnani in your lineup, you're always going to be at a disadvantage on the defensive end. Always. And you're always going to have to try and figure out how to cover him up. And there's always going to be a good chance that teams will take advantage of that weakness in the playoffs, making you less likely to have playoff success.
And Bargnani's contract only gets bigger, making him harder and harder to try and move. The smart thing is to move him now, while you can still (presumably) get a decent return for him, and feel secure that your front line is set for (hopefully) the next 10 years.
Keith Bogans started in Chicago last season for number one seed in the playoffs. DeShawn Stevenson in Dallas. Zaza Pachulia in Atlanta. Tony Allen in Memphis. And those are just off the top of my head from last season. I'd lump Amir in with a group like that because he's shown a willingness to do the dirty work, doesn't need plays run for him on O, crashes the boards, sets screens, etc. He's even showing his ability to knock down the elbow jumper. Personally I think he'd be most valuable on a contending team because he'd be able to stick to his strengths and not asked to do too much on the offensive end.
I'd actually argue that Detroit did have a superstar... Ben Wallace (while in his prime ofcourse). Ofcourse he probably doesn't fit the typical definition of a superstar as he isn't a great scorer.winning a Championship without an elite player is like planning for your retirement by buying lottery tickets. In many ways, Detroit winning a Championship was a fluke that probably won't be repeated.
He was one of the best, if not the best, defensive players in NBA history during his years in Detroit.
Last edited by GarbageTime; Thu Nov 3rd, 2011 at 08:28 AM.
Hakeem Olajuwon, drafted 1st overall.
Dwight Howard, drafted 1st overall immediately out of high school.
Tim Duncan, drafted 1st overall.
David Robinson, drafted 1st overall.
Patrick Ewing, drafted first overall.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, drafted 1st overall.
Jonas Valanciunas, drafted 5th overall.
With the exception of the intruder, all the other centers were certain to go 1st overall with another exception: Hakeem. To Hakeem's defense, 3 other Hall of Famers were drafted in his class, including one which many consider to be the best player to ever play the game.
Was the intruder drafted lower because it was very doubtful he could play in the NBA in th eimmediate future? I doubt it as San Antonio has already proven that if a player is good enough, they can draft 1st overall knowing he has first honor a two year commitment to the Navy.
Will be intruder be a Hall of Famer? I don't think even his strongest supporters suggest it.
A better question would be: will the intruder be a quality starting center? The intruder has show glimpses of being of very useful player but as he has not dominated his competition in Europe, the jury is still out as to how good he will be in the NBA.
This craziness about stating he will be a very good starting centers for the Raptors as a fait accompli is just setting yourselves up for further disappointment if he does not measure up to your high expectations.
Alonzo Mourining played at all star level until injuries and a very serious medical problem took thier tolls.
A great player who would rank no lower than 2 if we were to compare him against today's centers.
Giving how high you were on Kanter, another unproven center, are you saying that you envision him and JV to be the 2nd and 3rd best centers in the NBA for years to come? And that includes Drummond, another unproven center who is generally accepted as much better center prospect as either of them?
Last edited by Hugmenot; Thu Nov 3rd, 2011 at 10:09 AM.
To be honest I agree with arguements on both sides of this debate. However, we are in a full-out rebuild now. So that means that we keep the most promising players at each position and trade for either draft picks or young developing players. That means that Amir is the odd man out at PF. He is not as good as Bargs, and ED likely will surpass him in 1-2 years.
As a fan, I love the way Amir plays. I love watching his hustle, his slow-mo J, and his 2-man game with Jose. But if we have to trade a PF to continue the re-build, than its got to be Amir.
IMO, Amir is the most expendable from the group of Valanciunas, Davis, Barganani and Amir, from the Raptors' long-term perspective.
I have lots of rationale behind this, which I've gone into great detail about it several other threads. Basically, I prefer the individual strengths and overall balance a Val/Ed/Bargnani three-headed monster brings to the table the most, long-term. This is not a knock against Amir.
Val - rookie with very high ceiling, could be a stud at both ends of the court (#1 of 4 - potential for great offense & defense)
Ed - young/cheap player with higher ceiling than Amir, could become defensive anchor and effective garbage man on offense, with as much hustle (intangibles) as Amir (#2a of 4 - great defense, improving offense)
Bargnani - best pure offensive big, can play both positions more effectively than Amir/Ed at this point and just needs a kick in the ass to improve help-defense & rebounding (#2b of 4 - great offense, should improve defense under Casey)
Amir - although I think he has good value, I think Val/Ed provide everything he does (both tangible & intangible), at a fraction of the cost; although he is young, his body has taken a beating and he looks like a man much older (in body, not effort); his offensive game is not close to Bargnani's and should be eclipsed by Ed/Val quite soon; fouling is still an issue; basically I think he is the easiest of the four to replace (essentially Val/Ed will replace him internally, without needing to pickup another big)... I would look to trade him now, while his value is at its highest, to help address weaknesses at other positions by acquiring a player and/or draft pick(s) (#4 of 4 - good at offense & defense, but not great at either, with least potential for long-term improvement)
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 3rd, 2011 at 10:24 AM.