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The Amir Johnson Conundrum - Gold or Fallacy? Part 2 begins in post 90

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  • #76
    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Ahh i see its Bosh's fault.... not only does he steal rebounds he steals fans to

    It is Bosh's fault - somewhat.
    In his case, he stole part of the fan's heart. Some enough to extinguish them. Whether he's responsible or not, is irrelevant.

    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Yet, as you stated, Cleveland (who was an even worse team than Toronto, with a much larger drop in both record and ranking, with a worse economic climate) still maintained a 3rd overrall ranking in home attendance, while Toronto fell to 19th. Cleveland's average attendance fell approx. 400, while Toronto's fell 1300. You logic here is all over the place or atleast not in line with what the actual information states.

    As I said before, I was looking exclusively at Toronto's attendance to keep it relative. You premise is that Bargnani puts butts in the seats.... the best way to prove or disprove that is to look at Toronto's (not Cleveland's or LA's or any other teams) attendance.
    When attaching the importance of economic numbers, you can't dismiss the loss (including perceived loss) of your Star player, while still not memory free from the last Star (who - IMO - was the better of the two), along with a continued lack of success for play-offs, and it's easy to see more to this attendance movement.

    Besides, according to Forbes ... Raptors were the 10th most valuable franchise, as well as the 6th most profitable NBA team (for 2011). With such a lackluster NBA history, one has to wonder what really drives all this.


    Unless you're playing in Italy, I don't see a lot of fans clamouring to see a 7 foot jumpshooter. If that was the case, Dirk would have started at least once in the All-Star game, and he's miles better than Bargnani. How many other MVPs have never started in the All-Star game? [ Tim W]
    I'll deviate here, and say Amir could work well with a Jonas / Andrea combination, hence I see Ed moving. As for an Italian 7 footer not being popular in a heavy Italian city, that`s always trying to attach itself to heroes, I`ll have to disagree that popularity will be the problem.
    .

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    • #77
      Mods, is it possible to move the lower half of this thread under "Everything Bargnani"? i want to post on the Bargnani comments, but i dont want to do it under this Amir thread.

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      • #78
        tbihis wrote: View Post
        Mods, is it possible to move the lower half of this thread under "Everything Bargnani"? i want to post on the Bargnani comments, but i dont want to do it under this Amir thread.
        Back to Amir folks!

        I tried to move Bargnani discussion to Everything Bargs. If you wish to continue, do so there. I only glanced through my apologies if anyone feels their posts should not have been moved but tbihis is right.... this is an Amir area.

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        • #79
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Back to Amir folks!

          I tried to move Bargnani discussion to Everything Bargs. If you wish to continue, do so there. I only glanced through my apologies if anyone feels their posts should not have been moved but tbihis is right.... this is an Amir area.
          Sorry for derailing the thread there. Any time you try to choose which of the Raps bigs you'd keep or trade though, it always ends up coming back to how people see Bargs, and then the thread explodes.

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          • #80
            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            Sorry for derailing the thread there. Any time you try to choose which of the Raps bigs you'd keep or trade though, it always ends up coming back to how people see Bargs, and then the thread explodes.
            And there is no issue with that - at least in Everything Bargnani! lol No worries, in all seriousness.

            I can't imagine the day when Bargnani gets it or is traded.... either way it certainly will make it difficult to find a topic that results in nearly 4000 replies and over 212,000 views among Raptors fans.

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            • #81
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              And there is no issue with that - at least in Everything Bargnani! lol No worries, in all seriousness.

              I can't imagine the day when Bargnani gets it or is traded.... either way it certainly will make it difficult to find a topic that results in nearly 4000 replies and over 212,000 views among Raptors fans.
              I am certain some posters will have no difficulty whatsoever finding a new target for their hate.

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              • #82
                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                I am certain some posters will have no difficulty whatsoever finding a new target for their hate.
                And I'm certain that other posters mistake criticism for hatred, even when that criticism is warranted. Besides, I don't know anyone here who doesn't have the best interests of the Raptors at heart. We may disagree with what those best interests are, and how we should voice them, but I think that is all any of us wants. I, for one, have never hated any Raptors (even Vince). I just have strong beliefs about what type of team I want the Raptors to be.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

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                • #83
                  I don't hate players. I just hate fanboys :P

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                  • #84
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    In terms of work ethic, production, person, contract, still untapped potential, and relative to other back up bigs around the league, I think he would be difficult to replace. But that is just me.
                    +1. I was about to post the same thing.

                    This thread needs a poll.

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                    • #85
                      More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

                      While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.

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                      • #86
                        Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                        More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

                        While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.
                        I would think...or at least, I would hope that most readers of this site would agree that not a single player on this roster is good enough to be considered "untouchable" if a trade improves the team in the short AND long term.

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                        • #87
                          Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                          More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

                          While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.
                          i really am not a big fan of the word fanboy. sounds derogatory.

                          ive defended both amir and bargnani, i dont think that makes me a fanboy coz i wouldnt be devastated either if one or both gets traded. both players to me serve a purpose, and both could be beneficial for the raptors, depending on what the plan is.

                          Jonas, hhhmm, i want to see him play in a Raps uniform first before he gets traded.

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                          • #88
                            Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            I would think...or at least, I would hope that most readers of this site would agree that not a single player on this roster is good enough to be considered "untouchable" if a trade improves the team in the short AND long term.
                            I agree, nobody is untouchable, but, i would like to see management at least keep 4 or 5 and build around them.

                            There has to be stability, and a plan. Of course if a Kobe-esque or Lebron-esque player comes along then yeah, by all means do what is necessary but i would still like to see management tell 4-5 guys, hey, we're in this together and we're here for the long haul. build some bonds and camaraderie.

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                            • #89
                              Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                              More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

                              While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.
                              Well, I'm not quite sure why you include the comment "they claim", and then in the next sentence state that those claims are true. If it's actually true, then there's no reason to include the "they claim" comment.

                              As for the importance of scoring efficiency to be "laughable", again I question your use of the word. It's not simply that you disagree with it, but that its laughable. Well, considering that all 5 of the top 5 teams in field goal percentage made the playoffs, 3 made it past the first round and two made it all the way to the Finals, I really don't see how it's "laughable". Obviously scoring efficiency, by itself, doesn't guarantee success (Toronto was 8th), but to say it's laughable is completely disregarding history, and might I say, logic. The more efficient you team is at putting the ball in the basket, the better your chance of winning will be because you'll need fewer shots.

                              And I don't think either Amir or Bargnani is ever going to be a star, but that's not really the point. The point is that a player with Amir's game tends to help your team win more than a player with Bargnani's game.

                              Besides, if your goal is simply for the Raptors to be a "potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years", then there's another thing we don't see eye to eye on. I'm hoping for more than just that.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • #90
                                The Amir Johnson Conundrum - Gold or Fallacy? Part 2

                                I put Part 2 on the subject line coz i actually started the original thread sometime last year, asking posters on what Amir's real value to the Raptors is.

                                Now on his third year with the team and touted as one of the core pieces of this young team after being given a "nice" (i dont know how else to describe it) contract, what has become of Amir now? Is it time to trade him to make room for Ed as the first big off the bench? Or should we still value him as a keeper?

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