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The Amir Johnson Conundrum - Gold or Fallacy? Part 2 begins in post 90

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  • #16
    A starter in a good playoff team has a balanced skill set of offense and defense (usually), while many label Amir as a good defender, is offensive while not completely dead needs a lot of work. His jumper is improving, but I have yet to see him at least try a couple post moves. He is not a starter in a good playoff team, but that doesn't mean he won't get starter minutes.

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    • #17
      My only concern with Amir is injuries.

      He has tons of experience for such a young player, but one can also argue that he's put so much wear and tear on that body at such a young age. Its like buying a 2009 vehicle with 200,000km mileage on it. A bit exag, but you get the point. Specially with the young raptors team who are always looking to run.

      I love Amir, but i think, Bargnani's offense (and being BC's boy) and Ed's youth and potential will eventually make him the odd man out. I really want to believe that Bargnani will be the odd man out, but i really cant. I havent seen any indication that Colangelo is willing to let him go.

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      • #18
        tbihis wrote: View Post
        My only concern with Amir is injuries.

        He has tons of experience for such a young player, but one can also argue that he's put so much wear and tear on that body at such a young age. Its like buying a 2009 vehicle with 200,000km mileage on it. A bit exag, but you get the point. Specially with the young raptors team who are always looking to run.

        I love Amir, but i think, Bargnani's offense (and being BC's boy) and Ed's youth and potential will eventually make him the odd man out. I really want to believe that Bargnani will be the odd man out, but i really cant. I havent seen any indication that Colangelo is willing to let him go.

        He only played 11 games his first 2 seasons and 62 games in his 3rd and 4th seasons.

        Last year were his first missed games due to injury.

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        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          He only played 11 games his first 2 seasons and 62 games in his 3rd and 4th seasons.

          Last year were his first missed games due to injury.
          I did check that on Yahoo Sports, but what they failed to mention was that he played quite a lot of games with the D-League, plus not playing any competitive games doesnt mean he is not going full-force on practice or pre-season games. Right now, i dont think its a concern, but it could (not saying it will) become one in the immediate future.

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          • #20
            Who stays ... Who goes

            I completely disagree that he [Amir] isn't hard to replace. He's a young, athletic big man who hustles, defends, rebounds and scores extremely efficiently. [Tim W.]
            I agree (in our case). I'm not sure other teams don't have such a player. At least Contending teams.

            I also disagree with the notion that he can't start on a contender. [Tim W.]
            It's possible, but unlikely - IMO - and I'd venture to guess, a lot more opinions. Amir is best suited as the 3rd Big. Why? Because if Jonas is the Starting Centre (whenever that would happen), or someone else fills the spot (a Chandler/Noah type), there won't be enough scoring up front. Unless you do what the Italian team coach did - bring Andrea off the Bench after 5 minutes. That might work. Notwithstanding this option, the starting unit of Jonas & Amir would feature a great defense, but would put too much pressure on the other positions to supply the offense.

            If Colangelo trades Davis over Bargs, then I'll be starting a petition to occupy Bay Street. [Nilanka]
            See below for my opinion on this. As to your predilection for being part of a fractured and directionless group (some with good intentions), why do we keep discussing a Bargnani trade option as a fait accompli. Or at least infer such an option. It just seems like such a waste of time and breath. Besides venting, it serves no useful purpose.

            On a side note, you guys need the Colbert Super PAC to lead your thoughts. lol

            I would actually deal Amir before Ed Davis. Ed has the potential to be a game changer, double-double threat every night with strong rim defense. [ Papa Burgundy ]
            The last part of your statement is the reason why I think Ed will be moved. When it comes to trades, players like Andrea & Amir might have value, but it's the potential value (and rookie contract), that makes Davis a valuable trading commodity. A greater number of teams (poor & rich), will see the value in this type of guy.

            The contrasting opinion will say - then why not keep him. The answer is simple. Raptors have needs in other positions. Any GM will tell you - you need to give something up, to get something good back. With Jonas, Andrea & Amir rounding out the Big situation (in this scenario), moving Ed becomes more palatable. A team with multiple 1st picks, or a duplicity of Small Forwards, might find Davis an interesting possibility. Raptors chances are better with draft picks & trades (for a PG, SF etc. pick-up). Free Agency is affected by the Canadian border roadblock - and fresh air that smells funny ... eh?

            Trading Andrea may return something of value, but his contract will deter a number of teams. Johnson - while a valuable player - is a role player (IMO). An up and coming team would probably wish to find their own, and a Contender is probably sporting a AJ version already.

            Ed is cheap and with great upside. That's worth more than you think, on the open market.

            .

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            • #21
              tbihis wrote: View Post
              I did check that on Yahoo Sports, but what they failed to mention was that he played quite a lot of games with the D-League, plus not playing any competitive games doesnt mean he is not going full-force on practice or pre-season games. Right now, i dont think its a concern, but it could (not saying it will) become one in the immediate future.
              I forgot about D-League.

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              • #22
                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                The last part of your statement is the reason why I think Ed will be moved. When it comes to trades, players like Andrea & Amir might have value, but it's the potential value (and rookie contract), that makes Davis a valuable trading commodity. A greater number of teams (poor & rich), will see the value in this type of guy.

                The contrasting opinion will say - then why not keep him. The answer is simple. Raptors have needs in other positions. Any GM will tell you - you need to give something up, to get something good back. With Jonas, Andrea & Amir rounding out the Big situation (in this scenario), moving Ed becomes more palatable. A team with multiple 1st picks, or a duplicity of Small Forwards, might find Davis an interesting possibility. Raptors chances are better with draft picks & trades (for a PG, SF etc. pick-up). Free Agency is affected by the Canadian border roadblock - and fresh air that smells funny ... eh?

                Trading Andrea may return something of value, but his contract will deter a number of teams. Johnson - while a valuable player - is a role player (IMO). An up and coming team would probably wish to find their own, and a Contender is probably sporting a AJ version already.

                Ed is cheap and with great upside. That's worth more than you think, on the open market.

                .
                You nailed it.


                The only way Andrea is moved is if he is a total flop next year with Casey. I'm actually rooting for his success because if Casey can get through to him in the other well known areas (effort, rebounding, help) and solid (or at least average) team defense can be achieved with him on the court, Bargnani is a definite asset and piece moving forward. Keep in mind while I am rooting for success that doesn't necessarily mean I believe it will happen - but I really would like to be proven wrong.



                One other player that has been forgotten is Alabi. He is a true C - something Amir and ED are not. Casey told him before the lockout he could end up being the starting C for the Raps this year.

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                • #23
                  Alabi

                  One other player that has been forgotten is Alabi. He is a true C - something Amir and ED are not. Casey told him before the lockout he could end up being the starting C for the Raps this year.
                  Yes ... I completely forgot about Alabi. At worst, he's our 4th Big. As we found out last year, 4 Bigs is an absolute minimum. A guy like JJ or Kleiza could provide additional support (in a limited capacity), if we ever experience what we did last year.
                  .
                  If Alabi should leap to the Starting role - in a reasonably effective way - Davis will end up being moved faster than we think. Or at least I had thought.

                  .
                  Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Wed Nov 2, 2011, 05:47 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Nilanka wrote: View Post
                    I'm torn on Amir. I like his hustle, his attitude, and his willingness to play through injuries. But I don't see him in our starting front court over Davis. Yes, he's still relatively young, but I don't see him getting much better than he currently is.

                    Having said that, if he can turn into the type of glue/chemistry guy that Haslem is for the Heat, then perhaps Amir is more valuable than his numbers (seen at face value) suggest.

                    And the fact that some see Amir as our best player last year, is really an indication of how poor our roster is, rather than how good Amir is.
                    I think it's hard to doubt the guy that suddenly developed a jump shot over last summer. he's still improving and if it keeps going that way, then he's worth it. too bad the season hasn't started so we can see other things these young guys have developed

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                    • #25
                      er1csh3n wrote: View Post
                      A starter in a good playoff team has a balanced skill set of offense and defense (usually), while many label Amir as a good defender, is offensive while not completely dead needs a lot of work. His jumper is improving, but I have yet to see him at least try a couple post moves. He is not a starter in a good playoff team, but that doesn't mean he won't get starter minutes.
                      Have you looked around the league at the contenders over the years? Most teams aren't the Lakers. Tyson Chandler, Kendrick Perkins, Francisco Elson, Udonis Haslem, Horace Grant, Bill Laimbeer, AC Green were all starters with rings. And those were just the Championship teams. Just look at the last playoffs. Do Ibaka or Perkins have a more balanced skillset than Amir? Or whoever happened to be starting beside Bosh for Miami?

                      Besides, I think you vastly underestimate Amir's impact on the offensive end. While he will never be a great scorer, and isn't very good at creating his own shot, he doesn't have to. What he does well is play off others. And he scores efficiently and he moves very well without the ball and that makes him very dangerous. Now, I'm not saying he's an All-Star, and I think he's best suited to a bench role, but I can definitely see him being a starter on a contender.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

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                      • #26
                        RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                        I agree (in our case). I'm not sure other teams don't have such a player. At least Contending teams.
                        I'd love someone to try and name ten other players that bring what Amir does at his price or better (and who aren't rookies)

                        RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                        It's possible, but unlikely - IMO - and I'd venture to guess, a lot more opinions. Amir is best suited as the 3rd Big. Why? Because if Jonas is the Starting Centre (whenever that would happen), or someone else fills the spot (a Chandler/Noah type), there won't be enough scoring up front. Unless you do what the Italian team coach did - bring Andrea off the Bench after 5 minutes. That might work. Notwithstanding this option, the starting unit of Jonas & Amir would feature a great defense, but would put too much pressure on the other positions to supply the offense.
                        You're talking about the Raptors specifically. I'm talking about ANY team. A team with another big man who can score could easily have Amir as the other starter.

                        Besides, there's no reason, from what I've seen, to believe that Valanciunas WON'T be a good scorer in the NBA. He's showed much better offensive skills when given the chance than previously thought.

                        RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                        See below for my opinion on this. As to your predilection for being part of a fractured and directionless group (some with good intentions), why do we keep discussing a Bargnani trade option as a fait accompli. Or at least infer such an option. It just seems like such a waste of time and breath. Besides venting, it serves no useful purpose.
                        Does ANY of this discussion serve any useful purpose? Isn't this all simply entertainment for us Raptor fans?

                        RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                        The last part of your statement is the reason why I think Ed will be moved. When it comes to trades, players like Andrea & Amir might have value, but it's the potential value (and rookie contract), that makes Davis a valuable trading commodity. A greater number of teams (poor & rich), will see the value in this type of guy.

                        The contrasting opinion will say - then why not keep him. The answer is simple. Raptors have needs in other positions. Any GM will tell you - you need to give something up, to get something good back. With Jonas, Andrea & Amir rounding out the Big situation (in this scenario), moving Ed becomes more palatable. A team with multiple 1st picks, or a duplicity of Small Forwards, might find Davis an interesting possibility. Raptors chances are better with draft picks & trades (for a PG, SF etc. pick-up). Free Agency is affected by the Canadian border roadblock - and fresh air that smells funny ... eh?

                        Trading Andrea may return something of value, but his contract will deter a number of teams. Johnson - while a valuable player - is a role player (IMO). An up and coming team would probably wish to find their own, and a Contender is probably sporting a AJ version already.

                        Ed is cheap and with great upside. That's worth more than you think, on the open market.

                        .
                        I don't think anyone doubts the value of Davis on the open market. He's a young, athletic, hardworking big man with a lot of potential. Of course that's also a very good reason NOT to trade him. Besides, the idea is not to trade the player with the most value. The idea is to trade players you don't want for players you want. And to try and keep the players who will help you win. Trading Davis will net you a better player than Bargnani will, but that doesn't mean it makes your team better. And that's the whole goal, here.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

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                        • #27
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          Have you looked around the league at the contenders over the years? Most teams aren't the Lakers. Tyson Chandler, Kendrick Perkins, Francisco Elson, Udonis Haslem, Horace Grant, Bill Laimbeer, AC Green were all starters with rings. And those were just the Championship teams. Just look at the last playoffs. Do Ibaka or Perkins have a more balanced skillset than Amir? Or whoever happened to be starting beside Bosh for Miami?

                          Besides, I think you vastly underestimate Amir's impact on the offensive end. While he will never be a great scorer, and isn't very good at creating his own shot, he doesn't have to. What he does well is play off others. And he scores efficiently and he moves very well without the ball and that makes him very dangerous. Now, I'm not saying he's an All-Star, and I think he's best suited to a bench role, but I can definitely see him being a starter on a contender.
                          I said usually starters are adept at offense and defense, Kendrick provides lockdown D, and the team already has 3 players who are capable of creating their own shot, so his offense is not missed. Again, Chandler may not have a number of offensive skills, but he is a 7 foot giant who provides intimidation in the paint as well, if Amir Johnson was 7 foot and had that type of lockdown D, we wouldn't even have needed to draft JV, and when did Francisco Elson start on a good playoff team?

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                          • #28
                            er1csh3n wrote: View Post
                            I said usually starters are adept at offense and defense, Kendrick provides lockdown D, and the team already has 3 players who are capable of creating their own shot, so his offense is not missed. Again, Chandler may not have a number of offensive skills, but he is a 7 foot giant who provides intimidation in the paint as well, if Amir Johnson was 7 foot and had that type of lockdown D, we wouldn't even have needed to draft JV, and when did Francisco Elson start on a good playoff team?
                            Elson started for about half the season one of the years San Antonio won. And obviously it all depends on the circumstances. Most contenders are already going to have, at least, two or three players who can create their own shot, so can afford to have role players at other positions. All players need other players to compliment them. Just as Chandler and Noah need to play beside scorers, Dirk needs to play beside a defensive center. And Howard needs to play beside a PF who can step out and shoot. Amir needs to play beside a center who can score.

                            Amir's biggest strength is that he helps you win. While he's not a lockdown defender or much of a scorer, when he's on the floor, he is incredibly productive and simply helps your team win. And, in the end, it's not how multi-faceted or how much a player can score that's important. It's the effect he has when he's on the court.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • #29
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Besides, there's no reason, from what I've seen, to believe that Valanciunas WON'T be a good scorer in the NBA. He's showed much better offensive skills when given the chance than previously thought.
                              I agree that Jonas might be a good scorer - I just feel his role on the team should be more of what we're missing - a definitive Centre who's focus is to protect our End. If he pumps in 12 - 14 points a game, that'd be great. Anything more - and for which affects his defense - doesn't seem to be a good idea. Demar, Andrea & hopefully a decent SF should be able to provide the bulk of the offense - with complimentary help from the PG and Bench positions.

                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Does ANY of this discussion serve any useful purpose? Isn't this all simply entertainment for us Raptor fans?
                              You have a point. lol

                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              I don't think anyone doubts the value of Davis on the open market. He's a young, athletic, hardworking big man with a lot of potential. Of course that's also a very good reason NOT to trade him. Besides, the idea is not to trade the player with the most value. The idea is to trade players you don't want for players you want. And to try and keep the players who will help you win. Trading Davis will net you a better player than Bargnani will, but that doesn't mean it makes your team better. And that's the whole goal, here.
                              Every team prefers to keep their talent and find more - some way, somehow. That can involve risks, and doesn't work as well. The important factor when making trades, is not to be hell bent on getting better value (because value can be subjective). It's so one can take an area of strength, and trade it for another needed area - hoping at the same time to get equivalent value. In Raptor case, a Power Forward like Davis, may bring a similar type player, but one who plays the SF position (for example).

                              Not every GM can swing a KG steal. If you can, all the better I guess.
                              .

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                              • #30
                                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                                I agree that Jonas might be a good scorer - I just feel his role on the team should be more of what we're missing - a definitive Centre who's focus is to protect our End. If he pumps in 12 - 14 points a game, that'd be great. Anything more - and for which affects his defense - doesn't seem to be a good idea. Demar, Andrea & hopefully a decent SF should be able to provide the bulk of the offense - with complimentary help from the PG and Bench positions.
                                First of all, the only reason you'd NEED Valanciunas to be a dominant defensive center is if you keep Bargnani, since he basically has to make up for Bargnani's defensive liabilities. With a trio of Valanciunas, Davis and Amir, Valanciunas wouldn't have to become Dikembe.

                                Besides, last time I checked, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan (if you count him as a center), David Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Abdul-Jabar, among others, were all All-Defensive centers who also scored 20+ ppg.

                                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                                Every team prefers to keep their talent and find more - some way, somehow. That can involve risks, and doesn't work as well. The important factor when making trades, is not to be hell bent on getting better value (because value can be subjective). It's so one can take an area of strength, and trade it for another needed area - hoping at the same time to get equivalent value. In Raptor case, a Power Forward like Davis, may bring a similar type player, but one who plays the SF position (for example).

                                Not every GM can swing a KG steal. If you can, all the better I guess.
                                .
                                The point is to figure out the players worth keeping, and keep those, and then trade the others. If you HAVE to, then you can trade a keeper if it gets you to the next level, but that's certainly not the case with the Raptors. To me, Davis is an absolute keeper. Bargnani is obviously not. While you won't get more for Bargnani than for Davis, you'll improve your team more by trading away Bargnani and replacing him with a player that will help you win more.

                                Bargnani, for all his offensive skills, has never shown he actually helps your team win. Not in five years. Davis is the type of player that usually ends up winning a Championship. It's not a difficult choice to me.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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