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Thread: The Amir Johnson Conundrum - Gold or Fallacy? Part 2 begins in post 90

  1. #81
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    And there is no issue with that - at least in Everything Bargnani! lol No worries, in all seriousness.

    I can't imagine the day when Bargnani gets it or is traded.... either way it certainly will make it difficult to find a topic that results in nearly 4000 replies and over 212,000 views among Raptors fans.
    I am certain some posters will have no difficulty whatsoever finding a new target for their hate.

  2. #82
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I am certain some posters will have no difficulty whatsoever finding a new target for their hate.
    And I'm certain that other posters mistake criticism for hatred, even when that criticism is warranted. Besides, I don't know anyone here who doesn't have the best interests of the Raptors at heart. We may disagree with what those best interests are, and how we should voice them, but I think that is all any of us wants. I, for one, have never hated any Raptors (even Vince). I just have strong beliefs about what type of team I want the Raptors to be.
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  3. #83
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I don't hate players. I just hate fanboys :P

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    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In terms of work ethic, production, person, contract, still untapped potential, and relative to other back up bigs around the league, I think he would be difficult to replace. But that is just me.
    +1. I was about to post the same thing.

    This thread needs a poll.

  5. #85
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    More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

    While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

    While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.
    I would think...or at least, I would hope that most readers of this site would agree that not a single player on this roster is good enough to be considered "untouchable" if a trade improves the team in the short AND long term.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

    While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.
    i really am not a big fan of the word fanboy. sounds derogatory.

    ive defended both amir and bargnani, i dont think that makes me a fanboy coz i wouldnt be devastated either if one or both gets traded. both players to me serve a purpose, and both could be beneficial for the raptors, depending on what the plan is.

    Jonas, hhhmm, i want to see him play in a Raps uniform first before he gets traded.

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I would think...or at least, I would hope that most readers of this site would agree that not a single player on this roster is good enough to be considered "untouchable" if a trade improves the team in the short AND long term.
    I agree, nobody is untouchable, but, i would like to see management at least keep 4 or 5 and build around them.

    There has to be stability, and a plan. Of course if a Kobe-esque or Lebron-esque player comes along then yeah, by all means do what is necessary but i would still like to see management tell 4-5 guys, hey, we're in this together and we're here for the long haul. build some bonds and camaraderie.

  9. #89
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    More and more the fanboys of Amir Johnson are sounding like fanboys of Andrea Bargnani. "We should keep Amir and trade Andrea because Amir is the more efficient scorer and the better defender of the two" they claim.

    While these two claims are true (and nowithstanding the very high importance they give to scoring efficiency is laughable in my opionion), neither player is a star nor is likely to become a star. I would not care either way if Andrea, Amir, Ed, or Jonas gets traded if it positions the team as a potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years.
    Well, I'm not quite sure why you include the comment "they claim", and then in the next sentence state that those claims are true. If it's actually true, then there's no reason to include the "they claim" comment.

    As for the importance of scoring efficiency to be "laughable", again I question your use of the word. It's not simply that you disagree with it, but that its laughable. Well, considering that all 5 of the top 5 teams in field goal percentage made the playoffs, 3 made it past the first round and two made it all the way to the Finals, I really don't see how it's "laughable". Obviously scoring efficiency, by itself, doesn't guarantee success (Toronto was 8th), but to say it's laughable is completely disregarding history, and might I say, logic. The more efficient you team is at putting the ball in the basket, the better your chance of winning will be because you'll need fewer shots.

    And I don't think either Amir or Bargnani is ever going to be a star, but that's not really the point. The point is that a player with Amir's game tends to help your team win more than a player with Bargnani's game.

    Besides, if your goal is simply for the Raptors to be a "potential 2nd round playoff team for a few years", then there's another thing we don't see eye to eye on. I'm hoping for more than just that.
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  10. #90
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Default The Amir Johnson Conundrum - Gold or Fallacy? Part 2

    I put Part 2 on the subject line coz i actually started the original thread sometime last year, asking posters on what Amir's real value to the Raptors is.

    Now on his third year with the team and touted as one of the core pieces of this young team after being given a "nice" (i dont know how else to describe it) contract, what has become of Amir now? Is it time to trade him to make room for Ed as the first big off the bench? Or should we still value him as a keeper?

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    There aren't any reasons right now to move Amir.
    -Val is going to eventually assume the starting role at Centre but that won't be immediate
    -Ed isn't strong enough or experienced enough to start at Centre either. Ed also gets plenty of minutes and will get more as his play improves. Ed is also still on a rookie contract for another year so clearing cap space to pay him isn't an immediate need. We have another year to guage that.
    -If you need clear a spot to make room for a free agent there are a bunch of players to chose from that aren't as productive as Amir. Carter, Forbes etc..
    - He's a serviceable big that has a high motor and huge heart
    - Nobody is requesting him in a trade that would bring anything of value to the team

    Really there aren't any reasons to move him right now imo.

  12. #92
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    AS I said before. I don't think Ed will ever reach his "potential". He is very tiny and get pushed around. Amir is cheap, very solid player off the bench. He is big enough to hold is own, he is a great rebounder and pretty good shot blocker. He has improved on his FT % (even though it's down this year) and has proven he can be extremely efficient on offence. Ed IMO will always be the one with more "potential" but I don't see him reaching it.

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    bump and merge

  14. #94
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    AS I said before. I don't think Ed will ever reach his "potential". He is very tiny and get pushed around. Amir is cheap, very solid player off the bench. He is big enough to hold is own, he is a great rebounder and pretty good shot blocker. He has improved on his FT % (even though it's down this year) and has proven he can be extremely efficient on offence. Ed IMO will always be the one with more "potential" but I don't see him reaching it.
    I don't get this idea that Ed is small and Amir is big. Right now Ed is not only a bit taller, he is also 22 lbs heavier according to NBA.com. He may not be as strong yet but he will be in about a year and long term may even have the size to guard NBA 5's.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    bump and merge
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  16. #96
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I don't get this idea that Ed is small and Amir is big. Right now Ed is not only a bit taller, he is also 22 lbs heavier according to NBA.com. He may not be as strong yet but he will be in about a year and long term may even have the size to guard NBA 5's.
    And at this stage of their careers, if you give Ed 30+ mins, he'll produce the same stats as if you give Amir 30+ mins, and he's only been in the league for 2 years, while Amir has been playing for 7 years. Doesnt that give Ed more upside than Amir?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    AS I said before. I don't think Ed will ever reach his "potential". He is very tiny and get pushed around. Amir is cheap, very solid player off the bench. He is big enough to hold is own, he is a great rebounder and pretty good shot blocker. He has improved on his FT % (even though it's down this year) and has proven he can be extremely efficient on offence. Ed IMO will always be the one with more "potential" but I don't see him reaching it.
    IMO, i think Ed could vastly improve given the right training and guidance. Size issues can always be addressed, as evidenced how Bosh transformed himself from being a skinny rookie to a bulky 235. Same with Jermaine O'Neal. And if you look at their stats, theyre very, very similar. Wouldnt you opt to go with a guy who's only played 2 seasons rather than with a guy who's played 7 season but producing the same rate as a 2-year guy? IMO, going with Ed makes more sense, since there's still a vast room for improvement, or call it "potential" if you may.

    And IMO Amir's trade value is pretty much up there, since bigs, for some reason, keep falling here and there. I think teams underestimated the shortened season, there are indeed less games, but more back to backs and back to back to backs. The spurs are resting duncan, celtics are cutting down KGs minutes, etc, etc. Im pretty sure if BC made Amir available, a lot of teams will be calling. If they wait till next year, Amir's value might go down, with JV, Bargnani and potentially Davis eating into his playing time.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Feb 27th, 2012 at 05:07 PM.

  18. #98
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    IMO, i think Ed could vastly improve given the right training and guidance. Size issues can always be addressed, as evidenced how Bosh transformed himself from being a skinny rookie to a bulky 235. Same with Jermaine O'Neal. And if you look at their stats, theyre very, very similar. Wouldnt you opt to go with a guy who's only played 2 seasons rather than with a guy who's played 7 season but producing the same rate as a 2-year guy? IMO, going with Ed makes more sense, since there's still a vast room for improvement, or call it "potential" if you may.
    All things considered, yes, it's probably the wiser move to stick with Davis and trade Amir. But there are always variables. And you have to remember that potential is just that. It's not limitless, and it's not guaranteed. The art is in knowing when a player has capped out on his growth, regardless of what 'potential' he had to begin with.

    - What's the potential return on Amir vs. Ed?
    - What kind of salary is Davis apt to be looking for at the end of his rookie contract? If it's more than Amir is making, and he's still producing at the same level as Amir, what then?
    - What other roster moves might be made this season/this summer that would make one or both of them expendable or indispensible?

    Right now, you probably get less-than-fair value for Amir, and more-than-fair value for Davis (assuming some other team sees the same potential in him that you guys are talking about). So if Ed brings back more than Amir does, and they both provide similar value on the court, then maybe you trade Davis.
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  19. #99
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    I have to go with the same view point that there is no real need to move either of them. Depth is not necessarily a bad thing. Right now we have around 16 million designated to the PF position. How many starting PF's in the league make that? Next year when we add Val and if we keep Gray. We will have around 23 million allocated to the PF and C positions. We are looking good in regards of the cap and we will have a high draft pick this year. This team is looking good. We need to find a back up PG and SG for next season and a starting SF.

    So my vote is to keep them both. I think Amir is better than Ed at the moment, but I think Ed will eventually surpass him. Having Amir around backing up the PF and C positions is a nice leisure to have.

  20. #100
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    If I have to pick one or the other, I say Amir should stay. Every good team needs a guy like him. Never once have I doubted his effort and commitment while I do not think I can say the same about Ed.

    Keep them both though. I do not understand why fans are acting like it is one or the other. Never have I ever heard people complain about too much depth so what is the deal? They both have upside, they both work hard, and when they are both playing their best ball we are a far better team. While this is a far less important point, both have had some history with injury so instead of banking on health to have anything competent in the PF/C spot behind bargs and Val next year, why not keep them both?

    On another note, I am betting ED leaves the first chance he gets.

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