View Poll Results: How many rookies would be too many at this pint in time for the Raptors rebuild?

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Thread: How many rookies would be too many at this point in time for the Raptors rebuild?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default How many rookies would be too many at this point in time for the Raptors rebuild?

    Like there is every year, there has been chatter regarding the Raptors acquiring another first round draft pick to draft another top player in a highly touted draft class (Kabongo seems to be a popular choice around here for many good reasons besides he is a hometown boy).

    Keeping in mind they already have their own 2012 first round pick, possibly a second round pick, and JV who will be an NBA rookie (hopefully) next season, how many rookies would be too many at this point in time for the Raptors rebuild and reclamation project?
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Nov 18th, 2011 at 05:43 PM.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    i'd say 4 would be too many. We will probably have at least 3 rookies next season

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    Depends how many get significant minutes. Jonas and our first rounder in 2012 most likely will. 2nd rounder will either get D-League or 5 - 10 minutes. If there is another rookie in our starting line-up (if we acquire another pick) I'd see that as too many. DeRozan would be the oldest starter assuming Amir is replaced by Ed Davis by then.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    Depends how many get significant minutes. Jonas and our first rounder in 2012 most likely will. 2nd rounder will either get D-League or 5 - 10 minutes. If there is another rookie in our starting line-up (if we acquire another pick) I'd see that as too many. DeRozan would be the oldest starter assuming Amir is replaced by Ed Davis by then.
    Keep in mind rookies could be rotational players getting significant minutes but not starters. In the summer of 2012, BC could have a lot of money to offer free agents for up to 4 years as 2 or 3 rookies play out their rookie deals.

  5. #5
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    Who cares? If they trot five rookies, as long as they're good, I'll be happy. They're not going to win right away with that, but if they stay together they'll compete for more than a decade.
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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Rookies and Raptors

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Who cares? If they trot five rookies, as long as they're good, I'll be happy. They're not going to win right away with that, but if they stay together they'll compete for more than a decade.
    5 rookies is too much.

    Raptors need a greater veteran presence - not an overloaded rookie situation. Right now, we have the following:

    1. Demar - 2 years under his belt
    2. Bayless - for all intents purposes .... 1 year under his belt
    3. Alabi - a rookie in reality
    4. James J. - barely out of the rookie phase
    5. Ed Davis - ditto (JJ)
    6. Jonas - pending rookie
    7. 2012 1st - ditto
    8. 2012 2nd - ditto (but probable D-League bound)


    One significant issue with past Raptor versions, is severe lack of Veteran Leadership. Rookies need this element to develop. Veterans also need some court time, otherwise why come to a team like Toronto and its' glorious playoff history - not to mention its' ongoing Canadian issues. Rookies need some court time as well, otherwise they turn into Bayless/JJ scenarios.


    As for staying together and developing, I think one needs to remember Raptor history - to see what reality is like for Toronto basketball. Perpetual rebuilding phases just exasperate the situation. Losing - with an undercurrent of tanking - weighs on rookies, and invites a player to look elsewhere.

    Raptors need to demonstrate a winning attitude - even if it affects some development. Otherwise that development searches for a better environment.

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  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    5 rookies is too much.

    Raptors need a greater veteran presence - not an overloaded rookie situation. Right now, we have the following:

    1. Demar - 2 years under his belt
    2. Bayless - for all intents purposes .... 1 year under his belt
    3. Alabi - a rookie in reality
    4. James J. - barely out of the rookie phase
    5. Ed Davis - ditto (JJ)
    6. Jonas - pending rookie
    7. 2012 1st - ditto
    8. 2012 2nd - ditto (but probable D-League bound)


    One significant issue with past Raptor versions, is severe lack of Veteran Leadership. Rookies need this element to develop. Veterans also need some court time, otherwise why come to a team like Toronto and its' glorious playoff history - not to mention its' ongoing Canadian issues. Rookies need some court time as well, otherwise they turn into Bayless/JJ scenarios.


    As for staying together and developing, I think one needs to remember Raptor history - to see what reality is like for Toronto basketball. Perpetual rebuilding phases just exasperate the situation. Losing - with an undercurrent of tanking - weighs on rookies, and invites a player to look elsewhere.

    Raptors need to demonstrate a winning attitude - even if it affects some development. Otherwise that development searches for a better environment.

    .
    I agree with this statement these rookies need a professional, veteran presence in the locker room; someone to be the glue guy on this team. Someone with class, good work ethic, and leadership. I would love to see us pick up a guy like Shane Battier, plays good defense, can stretch the floor, and could fill in the gap at SF (though I think JJ is wicked too, but in case he doesnt pan out). Plus he is a real professional, hard working, classy player. Teams that are rebuilding go through some periods of depression throughout the season it is precisely at that time that they need someone who has seen it all, for them to follow and look up too.

  8. #8
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    Having a veteran on the team, I think, is important, but I'd have problem rolling out a starting five of Valanciunas, Anthony Davis, Barnes, Lamb and Kabongo, if it were possible. I remember the second year they Heat we're in existence, they trotted out a started lineup of just rookies and second year players. Unfortunately, the only two above average players they had were Rony Seikaly and Glen Rice, but I liked the idea of going young, like that.
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  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Raptors need a greater veteran presence - not an overloaded rookie situation. Right now, we have the following:

    1. Demar - 2 years under his belt
    2. Bayless - for all intents purposes .... 1 year under his belt
    3. Alabi - a rookie in reality
    4. James J. - barely out of the rookie phase
    5. Ed Davis - ditto (JJ)
    6. Jonas - pending rookie
    7. 2012 1st - ditto
    8. 2012 2nd - ditto (but probable D-League bound)

    .
    In all honesty, Bayless, Alabi and JJ may not be pieces of the rebuild going forward (although, I hold out some hope for JJ).

  10. #10
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    I agree with this statement these rookies need a professional, veteran presence in the locker room; someone to be the glue guy on this team. Someone with class, good work ethic, and leadership. I would love to see us pick up a guy like Shane Battier, plays good defense, can stretch the floor, and could fill in the gap at SF (though I think JJ is wicked too, but in case he doesnt pan out). Plus he is a real professional, hard working, classy player. Teams that are rebuilding go through some periods of depression throughout the season it is precisely at that time that they need someone who has seen it all, for them to follow and look up too.
    It depends on what rookies we're talking about, and what their specific mental make up looks like.

    Some players will thrive by throwing them in the deep end and letting them figure it out. Look at the 08-09 Thunder team that had Durant (20), Westbrook (20) and Jeff Green (22) lead them in minutes and scoring that season - they took their lumps in the short term with only 23 wins but I'm sure they'd do it all over again if they had the choice. I'm not saying that team didn't have any veterans at all, but they weren't given preference over the young guys for minutes just because of their age.

    We should be trying to add as many young blue chippers as possible right now and not worrying about how many rookies is 'too many'. I find that silly. We need as much talent as we can get our hands on and if it comes in the form of a 21 year old kid with only one year of college experience thenso be it. It will be up the front office and coaching staff to figure out what type of roles they'll have if they end up in Toronto.

    Plus it's not like we'll be in a situation where there will never be any veteran leadership on the team. In the past we've had guys who've barely even played but have still had a valuable affect on the team (D. Martin comes to mind).
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Nov 21st, 2011 at 01:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    It depends on what rookies we're talking about, and what their specific mental make up looks like.

    Some players will thrive by throwing them in the deep end and letting them figure it out. Look at the 08-09 Thunder team that had Durant (20), Westbrook (20) and Jeff Green (22) lead them in minutes and scoring that season - they took their lumps in the short term with only 23 wins but I'm sure they'd do it all over again if they had the choice. I'm not saying that team didn't have any veterans at all, but they weren't given preference over the young guys for minutes just because of their age.

    We should be trying to add as many young blue chippers as possible right now and not worrying about how many rookies is 'too many'. I find that silly. We need as much talent as we can get our hands on and if it comes in the form of a 21 year old kid with only one year of college experience thenso be it. It will be up the front office and coaching staff to figure out what type of roles they'll have if they end up in Toronto.

    Plus it's not like we'll be in a situation where there will never be any veteran leadership on the team. In the past we've had guys who've barely even played but have still had a valuable affect on the team (D. Martin comes to mind).
    Don't get me wrong I like having rookies on the team, but rookies need role models to follow. Who are our role models atm? Calderon (no defense) and Bargnani (ditto)? I'm just saying we need to create an environment for these rookies to prosper in, otherwise we can end up like the clippers. Just loading up with rookies and rebuilding is by no means guaranteed to be successful as a strategy.

    Add a nice pick in 2012 to JV and our existing core of youth, I think that is enough youth. Need to bring some roleplaying veteran glue guys, to shorten the learning curve for these kids.

  12. #12
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Don't get me wrong I like having rookies on the team, but rookies need role models to follow. Who are our role models atm? Calderon (no defense) and Bargnani (ditto)? I'm just saying we need to create an environment for these rookies to prosper in, otherwise we can end up like the clippers. Just loading up with rookies and rebuilding is by no means guaranteed to be successful as a strategy.

    Add a nice pick in 2012 to JV and our existing core of youth, I think that is enough youth. Need to bring some roleplaying veteran glue guys, to shorten the learning curve for these kids.
    The Clippers are always a bad example to bring up, for things like this, because they have been so horribly managed for years that the atmosphere is almost toxic. Their problem is not enough good veteran role models, it's not enough actual talent and not enough of the right talent. As for Calderon, I have to take issue with saying he's not a good role model. WHile he's not a good defender, it's not out of disinterest or lack of trying. And he's not nearly the poor defender he was the previous couple of years when he was battling hamstring injuries. No one seems to have noticed he was not nearly the liability he had been. He's still not good, but he wasn't horrible last year. Besides, he's professional, always works hard, never complains, has always done his best to step up in a leadership role when he was needed. I think he's an excellent role model.

    And as I said, all you need is a few good veterans. Take the Thunder, for instance. When they were rebuilding through youth, they had few veterans, but did have guys like Joe Smith, Earl Watson, Malik Rose and Etan Thomas (not all at the same time). Most didn't play much but were enough of a veteran presence that they helped the younger guys who played more. The season they jumped from 23 wins to 50 wins they only had two players, who played at least 1000 minutes, who were over the age of 25.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    How many rookies would be too many at this point in time for the Raptors rebuild?
    Any number larger than 42.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Any number larger than 42.
    Give me a break!

    It is tough to think of ideas to start a thread relevant to the Raptors with the only NBA action being initial Minnesota court filings.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Like there is every year, there has been chatter regarding the Raptors acquiring another first round draft pick to draft another top player in a highly touted draft class (Kabongo seems to be a popular choice around here for many good reasons besides he is a hometown boy).

    Keeping in mind they already have their own 2012 first round pick, possibly a second round pick, and JV who will be an NBA rookie (hopefully) next season, how many rookies would be too many at this point in time for the Raptors rebuild and reclamation project?
    I think its more of a question of who right now and less about how many. I say if the rookies are studs then bring them on. At the same time at this point in the game you don't want to be adding late round picks. Vets and guys who have shown they can make it on the pro level(ie: late 1st rounder in exchange for JJ) are better than late round fliers. However, I'll take Ed Davis type prospects all week in the teens over Drew Goodens or Andres Nocionis and I'd certainly take DeMar DeRozan level drafted players over the Jamal Crawfords of the league.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Don't get me wrong I like having rookies on the team, but rookies need role models to follow. Who are our role models atm? Calderon (no defense) and Bargnani (ditto)? I'm just saying we need to create an environment for these rookies to prosper in, otherwise we can end up like the clippers. Just loading up with rookies and rebuilding is by no means guaranteed to be successful as a strategy.

    Add a nice pick in 2012 to JV and our existing core of youth, I think that is enough youth. Need to bring some roleplaying veteran glue guys, to shorten the learning curve for these kids.
    The question that was asked in the original post was if the Raptors should be looking to acquire another first round pick or was there a possibility that it could create a situation with "too many rookies"?

    I don't think anyone is advocating stripping the entire roster of players who are over the age of 25 and going exclusively with inexperienced guys. You are always going to have some veteran guys sprinkled in and the Raptors will be no different going forward. Some of those veterans may be starters, some of them may be role players and there's even a chance that some of them rock street clothes from time to time.

    The important thing is to find the right mix of personalities and to get the chemistry correct rather than getting wrapped up in the exact ratio of rookies to veterans.

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