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Thread: Amir Johnson is the Rudy Ruettiger of the Toronto Raptors !!!

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    Raptors Republic Rookie YoungGuns's Avatar
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    Default Amir Johnson is the Rudy Ruettiger of the Toronto Raptors !!!

    Coach to Andrea Bargnani "If you had half the heart Amir Johnson has you'd be an All Star. Instead your just considered an overpaid contract by half the league."

    FREE AMIR !!!!

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Trade Amir!

    Bargnani/Davis PF combo is superior overall and more complementary, allowing for better matchup exploitation than an Amir/Davis PF combo, which is pure redundancy. I like Amir and what he brings to the table, but the problem facing him is that Davis is a better, younger, cheaper version of everything that Amir offers. The Raps don't need two blue collar bangers at PF - one banger and one finesse scorer is a more effective mix at a single position, IMO.

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    Neither Amir nor Ed are "blue collar bangers". That would be Aaron Gray and Jamaal Magloire.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Ed is an all star PF and Amir is a hustle guy. And Andrea is a soft jumpshooter, trade andrea

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    trade everyone!
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Trade Amir!

    Bargnani/Davis PF combo is superior overall and more complementary, allowing for better matchup exploitation than an Amir/Davis PF combo, which is pure redundancy. I like Amir and what he brings to the table, but the problem facing him is that Davis is a better, younger, cheaper version of everything that Amir offers. The Raps don't need two blue collar bangers at PF - one banger and one finesse scorer is a more effective mix at a single position, IMO.
    And you wonder why I write the comments about Bargnani that I do? Because people keep writing things like this. Apparently you want me to just ignore comments I disagree with?
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Trade Amir!

    Bargnani/Davis PF combo is superior overall and more complementary, allowing for better matchup exploitation than an Amir/Davis PF combo, which is pure redundancy. I like Amir and what he brings to the table, but the problem facing him is that Davis is a better, younger, cheaper version of everything that Amir offers. The Raps don't need two blue collar bangers at PF - one banger and one finesse scorer is a more effective mix at a single position, IMO.
    This makes sense if the discussion is limited to the starting lineup. But we also need serviceable minutes from the bench, which is a role Amir is perfectly suited for.

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    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    This makes sense if the discussion is limited to the starting lineup. But we also need serviceable minutes from the bench, which is a role Amir is perfectly suited for.
    I could see Amir stealing some minutes at the 5 if the opposing team's 5 isnt too big.

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    Johnson is a plus offensive rebounder with no additional plus skills. He's a small, weak version of Tyrone Hill. He can be replaced. Ed Davis is a 2-way player with plus skills on both ends.

    Johnson is a perfect example of why size matters in the NBA. If he was a couple inches taller and 25 pounds heavier, he's Hill or Oakley, or Kendrick Perkins. Lacking that size he's just an interchangeable part -- a big forward in a small forward's body, or, if you like, a small forward with big forward skills.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Johnson is a plus offensive rebounder with no additional plus skills. He's a small, weak version of Tyrone Hill. He can be replaced. Ed Davis is a 2-way player with plus skills on both ends.

    Johnson is a perfect example of why size matters in the NBA. If he was a couple inches taller and 25 pounds heavier, he's Hill or Oakley, or Kendrick Perkins. Lacking that size he's just an interchangeable part -- a big forward in a small forward's body, or, if you like, a small forward with big forward skills.
    Everyone can be replaced. What there aren't a lot of in the NBA are athletic big men who hustle, rebound, defend, move well without the ball and score efficiently. If you think there are, then explain to me why guys like Drew Gooden and Tyrus THomas are getting paid more.

    Honestly, I really don't understand where this type of criticism of Amir comes from.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Everyone can be replaced. What there aren't a lot of in the NBA are athletic big men who hustle, rebound, defend, move well without the ball and score efficiently. If you think there are, then explain to me why guys like Drew Gooden and Tyrus THomas are getting paid more.

    Honestly, I really don't understand where this type of criticism of Amir comes from.
    I don't think it is as much criticism as it is trying to be a little more realistic on the guys ability. Amir is a solid bench player/spot starter. He runs the floor well, can finish on the pick n roll, and has developed a reliable 15 foot shot. I don't think he is an above average athlete at his position, nor is he a great rebounder or shot-blocker, he is decent at those things, but not great. I like the upside that Ed has more than Amir, I feel he will be a better rebounder than Amir and will have a little more versatility to his offensive game than Amir as well. The Argument that Andrea teamed with Ed as a Power forward tandem is better than an ED Amir PF tandem does have merit, for it to be dismissed is pure bias on that person. Andrea's ability to take players off the bounce, spread the floor, and his improved post game are all reasons that he can be a great ying to Ed's yang mixing up match-ups vs. the opponent. Now the argument on his lack of rebounding and defense can be made to favour Amir, and it is valid, but there is no clear cut answer to this debate.

    EDIT: Tim, this is not directed at you, I just quoted your reply. It is a general comment to all the people who think this argument is cut and dry.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote YoungGuns wrote: View Post
    Coach to Andrea Bargnani "If you had half the heart Amir Johnson has you'd be an All Star. Instead your just considered an overpaid contract by half the league."
    wait, was this actually said?
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    The Argument that Andrea teamed with Ed as a Power forward tandem is better than an ED Amir PF tandem does have merit, for it to be dismissed is pure bias on that person.
    The Bargs/Davis idea does have merit, but it ignores the fact that both of these players can't play 48 minute games. We need Amir for that reason alone. Amir isn't a starter.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The Bargs/Davis idea does have merit, but it ignores the fact that both of these players can't play 48 minute games. We need Amir for that reason alone. Amir isn't a starter.
    People are missing what is being said, both Andrea and Ed are Power forwards, thus 48 minutes between the two of them, Andrea picks up time at the 5 to balance out minutes. We do need to have a third big logging 20 plus minutes a game, but that will (should be) a true center.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    People are missing what is being said, both Andrea and Ed are Power forwards, thus 48 minutes between the two of them, Andrea picks up time at the 5 to balance out minutes. We do need to have a third big logging 20 plus minutes a game, but that will (should be) a true center.
    I expect all 3 players to be interchangeable between PF and C this season. The clear cut loser will be moved prior to Valanciunas arriving next year.

    I don't think giving either Magloire or Gray heavy minutes does anything to help this team develop moving forward. But that's just my opinion.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I expect all 3 players to be interchangeable between PF and C this season. The clear cut loser will be moved prior to Valanciunas arriving next year.

    I don't think giving either Magloire or Gray heavy minutes does anything to help this team develop moving forward. But that's just my opinion.
    My previous post was more for next year with Jonas than this year with the stop-gap bigs we signed.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Everyone can be replaced. What there aren't a lot of in the NBA are athletic big men who hustle, rebound, defend, move well without the ball and score efficiently. If you think there are, then explain to me why guys like Drew Gooden and Tyrus THomas are getting paid more.

    Honestly, I really don't understand where this type of criticism of Amir comes from.
    An objective evaluation of the evidence.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Johnson is a plus offensive rebounder with no additional plus skills. He's a small, weak version of Tyrone Hill. He can be replaced. Ed Davis is a 2-way player with plus skills on both ends.
    I'm not sure how you see such a difference between Amir and Ed's game. The only thing Ed has going for him is his relative inexperience. They're fairly equal rebounders, defenders and shot blockers at this point. And if anything, Amir's got a better jumper, and is a better FT shooter.

    Also, what exactly is a "plus skill"? That sounds like a subjective term when you're trying to be objective.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure how you see such a difference between Amir and Ed's game. The only thing Ed has going for him is his relative inexperience. They're fairly equal rebounders, defenders and shot blockers at this point. And if anything, Amir's got a better jumper, and is a better FT shooter.

    Also, what exactly is a "plus skill"? That sounds like a subjective term when you're trying to be objective.
    A plus skill would be one that's above average. Amir Johnson, by any objective measurement, is a plus offensive rebounder. For a starting 4, he's a below-average defensive rebounder. Ed Davis has a wider frame and taller body and is already, in a truncated season with injuries and a lack of a training camp, a much better defensive rebounder than Johnson. Don't take my word for it, look at the numbers. I expect him to add strength and become a very good 2-way player and post defender. That ship has sailed for Johnson.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    A plus skill would be one that's above average. Amir Johnson, by any objective measurement, is a plus offensive rebounder. For a starting 4, he's a below-average defensive rebounder. Ed Davis has a wider frame and taller body and is already, in a truncated season with injuries and a lack of a training camp, a much better defensive rebounder than Johnson. Don't take my word for it, look at the numbers. I expect him to add strength and become a very good 2-way player and post defender. That ship has sailed for Johnson.
    But even with that definition of a plus skill, there is still room for interpretation. Can I assume you think Bargnani's scoring is a plus skill? On the surface, I would agree. Bargnani scores more points per game than the average player, therefore his scoring is considered a plus skill. But when we look at his FG%, Bargnani isn't above average, which begs the question, which stat provides more value when determining Bargnani's only plus skill (the final result, or the method in which he achieves that result)?

    Anyway, I don't think Amir's ship has sailed. If you believe Bargnani can make defensive improvements under Casey (an area where he's not just bad, but he's atrocious), then it seems counter-intuitive to conclude that Amir cannot do the same, especially considering he would need to show much less improvement compared to Bargnani to be considered effective.

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