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Thread: Grange Advocating Tanking/Raptors not rushing rebuild

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Default Grange Advocating Tanking/Raptors not rushing rebuild

    It's a tough pill to swallow, but it makes perfect sense.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2...range_raptors/

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    I feel like I've almost been saying the exact same thing....
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Since when has Grange not advocated tanking?

    I believe they should do their best to win with what they have. That means no waiver claims or signings. Going this route you still can still look at yourself in the mirror. It's called building from within and through prospect development. You should never try to lose. You're tossing your integrity out the door and betraying your customers.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Since when has Grange not advocated tanking?

    I believe they should do their best to win with what they have. That means no waiver claims or signings. Going this route you still can still look at yourself in the mirror. It's called building from within and through prospect development. You should never try to lose. You're tossing your integrity out the door and betraying your customers.
    It's a thin line. I do disagree with management telling coaches to try and lose, because I think it creates a toxic atmosphere and you basically have to get rid of all the players who were involved in it, but I do agree that Colangelo shouldn't give them anything to help them, this year. They'll lose either way.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Since when has Grange not advocated tanking?
    Very true. Grange was advocating tanking way back in 2008-09. Instead of going on a (meaningless) 14-9 run to end the season with 33 wins with a newly acquired Shawn Marion, we should've stuck with our current roster and played it out. Those extra wins, according to Grange, was the difference between drafting DeRozan vs. Stephen Curry.

    At this point, I would say both players have a lot of potential. But it'll be interesting to look back in a few years to see which player becomes the more valuable one.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Very true. Grange was advocating tanking way back in 2008-09. Instead of going on a (meaningless) 14-9 run to end the season with 33 wins with a newly acquired Shawn Marion, we should've stuck with our current roster and played it out. Those extra wins, according to Grange, was the difference between drafting DeRozan vs. Stephen Curry.

    At this point, I would say both players have a lot of potential. But it'll be interesting to look back in a few years to see which player becomes the more valuable one.
    Opting to not do the Marion trade would not be tanking. Tanking is intentionally losing.


    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I wholehearty agree with the approach.

    The only thing I might do different is to bid low on amnesty players who would be good complements to the core. Either the Raptors get one or two bargain players at a huge discount or the players end up on other teams which bid a value closer to their true market value.

    Question: if an amnesty player is won at 30% of the contract value by team X and team X trades the player to team Y (if it's allowed), what is the proportion of the salary team Y is respoinsible for?
    My problem with going there is that most guys who will get cut are old and can no longer live up to their current contract. Alternatively they're "damaged" in some way and can no longer live up to their contract. If Colangelo took a stab at Brandon Roy I can live with that. If he went after Travis Outlaw I can live with that. The conclusion I've come to is if we're talking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis or Lamar Odom or any of the vets in the league who could be sent packing, I have a problem. I have a problem because what are the Raptors investing in? If they go after a vet who's in his 30's right now they're leap frogging processes. It's like a runner skipping the part where he ties his shoes so that he can start running this instant. They need to stick to the plan. I think they will stick to the plan and I don't think that plan is adding vets now to sacrifice pole position in a deep 2012 draft.

    I think they'll market this team with what they have and then do their honest to goodness best effort to win games.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    My problem with going there is that most guys who will get cut are old and can no longer live up to their current contract. Alternatively they're "damaged" in some way and can no longer live up to their contract. If Colangelo took a stab at Brandon Roy I can live with that. If he went after Travis Outlaw I can live with that. The conclusion I've come to is if we're talking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis or Lamar Odom or any of the vets in the league who could be sent packing, I have a problem. I have a problem because what are the Raptors investing in? If they go after a vet who's in his 30's right now they're leap frogging processes. It's like a runner skipping the part where he ties his shoes so that he can start running this instant. They need to stick to the plan. I think they will stick to the plan and I don't think that plan is adding vets now to sacrifice pole position in a deep 2012 draft.
    I think we're saying the same thing but with you stating explicitely which players you believe would be good (and bad) complements to the existing core.

    My percentage question is to determine what are the options if the amnesty player is found not to be a good fit.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I think we're saying the same thing but with you stating explicitely which players you believe would be good (and bad) complements to the existing core.

    My percentage question is to determine what are the options if the amnesty player is found not to be a good fit.
    Determining a "good fit" is not a strong suit of Colangelo's I am afraid and I dont know that Stefanski not being on the ground that long is in a good position to assist greatly. All in all my own inclination would be to just fill the remaining positions with cheap help and wait out the fallout from the frenzy and/or try and snag a draft pick for next year. Strategic tanking is what I call it

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I believe they should do their best to win with what they have. That means no waiver claims or signings. Going this route you still can still look at yourself in the mirror. It's called building from within and through prospect development. You should never try to lose. You're tossing your integrity out the door and betraying your customers.
    I wholehearty agree with the approach.

    The only thing I might do different is to bid low on amnesty players who would be good complements to the core. Either the Raptors get one or two bargain players at a huge discount or the players end up on other teams which bid a value closer to their true market value.

    Question: if an amnesty player is won at 30% of the contract value by team X and team X trades the player to team Y (if it's allowed), what is the proportion of the salary team Y is respoinsible for?

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    I think to tell the coach to take a dive is to tell the fans to take their $xxx/ticket and stick it. It's unethical and it's bad business.

    Colangelo has already pretty much said they won't be major players in FA. I think he's indirectly saying they're not planning on taking a step forward this season. With a 65 game schedule all it takes is one bad losing streak to hit bottom. They can have the best of both worlds. Integrity intact and high lotto pick.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I think to tell the coach to take a dive is to tell the fans to take their $xxx/ticket and stick it. It's unethical and it's bad business.

    Colangelo has already pretty much said they won't be major players in FA. I think he's indirectly saying they're not planning on taking a step forward this season. With a 65 game schedule all it takes is one bad losing streak to hit bottom. They can have the best of both worlds. Integrity intact and high lotto pick.
    Yes, I agree.
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    It's not so much tanking as it is the reality of the situation. There is nothing in free agency to help this team. It has virtually no assets to trade. It has no draft pick entering the roster until the 2012 season. Even if management wanted to make this team a .500 club, I am not sure it is even possible.

    As a general principle, I hate tanking. Having said that, the NBA defies the general rules. You need to acquire star talent at any cost. Any cost. If that means turning into a D-League team for 4 years, so be it. This is not MLB, the NHL or even the NFL where you can compete without a superstar, that isn't the case in the NBA. Any cost to acquire a superstar. Any cost.

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    Just give Alabi 40 minutes a game. That's still "developing."
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    If he deserves it, sure.

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    Raptors should be able to honestly play hard and still get a high lotto pick. A top 5 pick in a strong draft is an opportunity that comes along only once a decade or so, even for a generally weak team. They appear to have that opportunity this year, as there's at least 3 guys who have solid all-star potential, as long as they declare. Grab one of those guys, and then get the best complementary pieces once our cap space starts to open up next summer.

    That said, I feel bad for the season ticket holders; they're going to have to sit through a lot of really crappy ball this year.

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    A top 5 pick in a strong draft is an opportunity that comes along only once a decade or so, even for a generally weak team. They appear to have that opportunity this year, as there's at least 3 guys who have solid all-star potential, as long as they declare. Grab one of those guys, and then get the best complementary pieces once our cap space starts to open up next summer.
    What if they don't declare or if the ping-pong balls are not kind to the Raptors and they end up with the 6th pick? Do you tank again to get a shot at a franchise player in the class of 2013?

    That sounds fun...

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    What if they don't declare or if the ping-pong balls are not kind to the Raptors and they end up with the 6th pick? Do you tank again to get a shot at a franchise player in the class of 2013?

    That sounds fun...
    I know there's a portion of the fan base that is "morally" opposed to do anything other than try and win as many games as possible, but that's not always the smartest thing to do. Right now, the stars seem to be aligning for the Raptors to make a big impact in the 2012 offseason. They aren't expected to compete, they have a new coach that is going to be given some leeway by the fans, it's a young team and it's a shortened season. If they don't get a top three pick, they'll still have options. They can trade up, or try and pick up a franchise player in a trade or free agent signing.

    To me, the only thing worse than tanking (or not trying focusing on winning, but developing) is perennial mediocrity that has been pretty much the highlight of the Raptor franchise.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I know there's a portion of the fan base that is "morally" opposed to do anything other than try and win as many games as possible.
    That's not what we are saying. We are saying to try to win to what you have already.

    I would certainly not trade a Raptors propspect for a veteran just to increase our win totals this year.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    , but that's not always the smartest thing to do. Right now, the stars seem to be aligning for the Raptors to make a big impact in the 2012 offseason. They aren't expected to compete, they have a new coach that is going to be given some leeway by the fans, it's a young team and it's a shortened season. If they don't get a top three pick, they'll still have options. They can trade up, or try and pick up a franchise player in a trade or free agent signing.
    A team is a business and the image you project to your paying customers and sponsors matter. trying to sell the "We Suck Deliberately" image to commercial sponsors is more than, say, "We're a hard working yong team on the rise". Although some fans adopt a Winning the Championship is the Only Thing that Matters attitude, it is by no way representative of the position adopted by the owners of the Raptors.

    Trying to trade up in 2012? If the the top 3, 4, or 5 have so much more potential than anyone else in the draft, what do you propose the Raptors send to a rebuilding team in order to pick at a higher slot? DD, ED, JV? So we delay the rebuilding process further by trading a work in progress and a pick for someone with a potentially higher ceiling.

    Making a splash in the 2012 free agent market? Which superstar would want to come to a perenial losing team which tanks on purpose. Seriously, we already seen that players will chose a destination of their liking if they receive comparable offers from multiple teams. The Raptors have absolutely no history of making a splash in the free agency market and two seasons spent at the bottom of the league is very unlikley to trigger a change how superstars view Toronto.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    To me, the only thing worse than tanking (or not trying focusing on winning, but developing) is perennial mediocrity that has been pretty much the highlight of the Raptor franchise.
    I have cheered for the Leafs for the past fourty five years and I expect they will be my favorite NHL team until my lasst breadth despite me having no expectation they will win a cup before I die.

    I've attended almost all their games in Washington for the past 20 years (I've also attended the Raptors games the past two years) and a few Friday and Saturday games in Philadelphia. Despite their less than stellar record, I am happy when they put forth the effort because it is good entertainment. Entertainment, because when I pay hundred bucks or more to attend a game, I expect to be entertained.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    That's not what we are saying. We are saying to try to win to what you have already.

    I would certainly not trade a Raptors propspect for a veteran just to increase our win totals this year.
    No one is suggesting INTENTIONALLY losing games. I just don't believe we should add anyone who will make any kind of an impact in the win column. Focus on development of players. Sometimes that means not playing the veterans in crunch time, which would be the norm if you cared more about winning.

    Look at when Brendan Malone was coaching. While he actually did a fantastic job of getting the most out of very little talent, he cared more about winning than developing players. Of course, with most coaches being judged on their win/loss record, that's not surprising.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    A team is a business and the image you project to your paying customers and sponsors matter. trying to sell the "We Suck Deliberately" image to commercial sponsors is more than, say, "We're a hard working yong team on the rise". Although some fans adopt a Winning the Championship is the Only Thing that Matters attitude, it is by no way representative of the position adopted by the owners of the Raptors.

    Trying to trade up in 2012? If the the top 3, 4, or 5 have so much more potential than anyone else in the draft, what do you propose the Raptors send to a rebuilding team in order to pick at a higher slot? DD, ED, JV? So we delay the rebuilding process further by trading a work in progress and a pick for someone with a potentially higher ceiling.

    Making a splash in the 2012 free agent market? Which superstar would want to come to a perenial losing team which tanks on purpose. Seriously, we already seen that players will chose a destination of their liking if they receive comparable offers from multiple teams. The Raptors have absolutely no history of making a splash in the free agency market and two seasons spent at the bottom of the league is very unlikley to trigger a change how superstars view Toronto.
    Again, you're getting caught up on the the whole "tanking" thing. I'm not suggesting trading away the good players for nothing, as Matt mentioned. And I"m not suggesting losing on purpose. But there's a big difference between trying to squeeze out every single win you can than trying to focus more on development of players.

    Are you going to play Alabi 20 mpg, like I'd like to see, if you're trying to win every game? If you're trying to win every game, you're not going to let players play through their mistakes.

    I don't know what would be involved in trading up. That's why I listed it as an option. I wouldn't trade Valanciunas (because he's such an unknown), but if it means drafting a franchise player over a borderline All-Star, I'd pretty much consider everyone else.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I have cheered for the Leafs for the past fourty five years and I expect they will be my favorite NHL team until my lasst breadth despite me having no expectation they will win a cup before I die.

    I've attended almost all their games in Washington for the past 20 years (I've also attended the Raptors games the past two years) and a few Friday and Saturday games in Philadelphia. Despite their less than stellar record, I am happy when they put forth the effort because it is good entertainment. Entertainment, because when I pay hundred bucks or more to attend a game, I expect to be entertained.
    You're apparently happy with mediocrity. I'm not. I'd like to see a Raptor team actually contend for once. If I had a GM who said he just wanted to put a competitive team on the floor and that's it, he'd be gone quicker than you can say Rob Babcock.

    Because I want the Raptors to win it all, I'm willing to sacrifice a little to do that.
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    What if they don't declare or if the ping-pong balls are not kind to the Raptors and they end up with the 6th pick? Do you tank again to get a shot at a franchise player in the class of 2013?

    That sounds fun...
    You keep tanking until you get a player that you can build a franchise around. Tanking, in my view, means not spending money on fungible or complementary players (like most of the Raps current roster), keeping the payroll down and the roster young. If you don't have a franchise player who's a top 10 or 15 guy in the league, you don't really have anything.

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