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Thread: Chisholm: What to do about the C position? Forget Tyson Chandler (212)

  1. #41
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Chandler really only plays to the level of his teams, or so I've noticed. When his teams are awful, he doesn't seem to play as well and vice-versa. I'd pass on Chandler and look for a cheaper veteran. Perhaps Diop (if he's amnesty-ed). If he's not, I'd look at Jeff Foster.

  2. #42
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    It would add 3-5 wins, possibly pushing the team out of the basement, and it would cost too much. The cap space and lottery chances are more important than those 3-5 wins.

  3. #43
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If you're buying into Chandler you're buying into rebounding and defense. He's not going to give you much more than that. I like his game and if he were to sign here I would not be angry. I don't want this to happen though. They have their center of the future and the draft is going to be good this year. Perhaps Colangelo feels that not even Chandler can stop their fall this season?

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I'm back on the Bargnani bandwagon on one condition: the draft rule stays the same. Being back on the bandwagon, the Raptors should go get Tyson Chandler.

    Here is why:

    1) Chandler can only be offered a 4 year contract. He will be 33 in the last year of the contract. He will always have trade value in the life of his contract. If Jonas comes over and is capable of starting immediately, he can be traded, however, I do not think this will be the case. This allows JV to develop and would be ready to take over in his 4th year. JV would have lots of minutes behind Chandler who averaged 28mpg in Dallas last season and 32mpg in the playoffs. The contract to Chandler should be front loaded, i.e. 4 year/$40M deal at $11.5/10.5/9.5/8.5 in each season. With $8M in cap space, a trade or cut will have to happen to free up $3.5M.

    2) Bargnani is going to shock us all. Anyone who follows the stock market knows when pessimism reaches its lowest is when markets generally skyrocket up. Bargnani's stock cannot get any lower. I think the combination of not having to play C, to not have to be the last line of defense, improved conditioning, an end to the coddling from BC/Gheridini, and a hard ass coach will bring out the best in him. I'm not expecting miracles but defensive production like David West or rebounding numbers like Nene are not unrealistic. If he can do this, any team in the league would want him.

    3) If freshmen are permitted to stay in the draft, the 2012 draft is stacked. If Bargnani shocks Raptorville with Chandler in the front court with him, I think the Raptors could challenge for the playoffs (low seed, of course). The Raptors could draft a very strong player in the 12-15 range. 8 of the top 10 players in the draft are PF's. Quincy Miller or Kidd-Gilchrist could easily be available OR the Raptors could package their pick with a player and/or a future draft pick to move up in the draft.

    4) The Raptors could still have about $10/11M in contract space next summer.

    I am ready for the ridicule.... bring it.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason: /

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Chandler never has and never will be an all-star. He's a decent player but will be commanding big coin. One thing that I have learned from previous years is that most GM's are dumb and short sighted. They will pay Chandler a ridiculous amount of money to lure him away from Dallas and think of him as a prize free agent.

    He won a championship, played great (in a contract year by the way), but before that was just alright - nothing special.

    It doesn't make sense to me, but I see Chandler getting around 11-12M a year. If Hedo was given $53M/5 years, I'd assume Chandler would be given about the same, or if not more... maybe $45M/4 years. Chandler's contact will be talked about for the next few years (in a negative light). I hope Bryan learned his lesson from Hedo and doesn't bite again this time around. Hopefully Stefanski will be holding Bryan's leash back.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm back on the Bargnani bandwagon on one condition: the draft rule stays the same. Being back on the bandwagon, the Raptors should go get Tyson Chandler.

    Here is why:

    1) Chandler can only be offered a 4 year contract. He will be 33 in the last year of the contract. He will always have trade value in the life of his contract. If Jonas comes over and is capable of starting immediately, he can be traded, however, I do not think this will be the case. This allows JV to develop and would be ready to take over in his 4th year. JV would have lots of minutes behind Chandler who averaged 28mpg in Dallas last season and 32mpg in the playoffs. The contract to Chandler should be front loaded, i.e. 4 year/$40M deal at $11.5/10.5/9.5/8.5 in each season. With $8M in cap space, a trade or cut will have to happen to free up $3.5M.

    2) Bargnani is going to shock us all. Anyone who follows the stock market knows when pessimism reaches its lowest is when markets generally skyrocket up. Bargnani's stock cannot get any lower. I think the combination of not having to play C, to not have to be the last line of defense, improved conditioning, an end to the coddling from BC/Gheridini, and a hard ass coach will bring out the best in him. I'm not expecting miracles but defensive production like David West or rebounding numbers like Nene are not unrealistic. If he can do this, any team in the league would want him.

    3) If freshmen are permitted to stay in the draft, the 2012 draft is stacked. If Bargnani shocks Raptorville with Chandler in the front court with him, I think the Raptors could challenge for the playoffs (low seed, of course). The Raptors could draft a very strong player in the 12-15 range. 8 of the top 10 players in the draft are PF's. Quincy Miller or Kidd-Gilchrist could easily be available OR the Raptors could package their pick with a player and/or a future draft pick to move up in the draft.

    4) The Raptors could still have about $1011M in contract space next summer.

    I am ready for the ridicule.... bring it.
    Good post, and good thinking. I dig.
    @jerboat

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You think Triano's system was the problem last year, and not the fact that the Raptors simply were a team that was incredibly young and lacking in talent?

    Too many guys give WAY too much credit and blame to coaches. There are MAYBE half a dozen NBA coaches that can actually make that much of a difference.



    So you'd rather the team goes out and wins maybe 10 more games next year than they are predicted to? That's going to make you happy? Then what? Maybe become a mediocre team fighting for a playoff spot every year because they're simply not talented enough to be real contender? Haven't you had enough of that?

    Seriously, I just don't understand this attitude, especially from a Raptor fan. Are you really that desperate to win a few games that you'd mortgage the future to do it?

    As for Valanciunas, most people here aren't going on stats but actually watching him play. Stats in Europe mean about as much as NCAA stats when it comes to comparing them to the NBA, which is why you have to watch them actually play. And while NBA scrubs go over there and win MVP, good NBA players go over there and struggle. It's a different game. Some adapt, some don't.
    as a fan i want them to win it all but im being realistic here..i think even without chandler well be a mediocre team fighting for a spot...& while the raps never had a lot to work with last season trianos defencive scheme was brutal & the whole league exploited it..WAY too much help defence, on many nights teams just passed around & watched us scramble with our heads up our ass's

    how exactly is signing chandler morgaging the future??? all that is lost is money... if he doesnt work out there is amnisty....i dont see it as morgaging the future at all.. i see it as solidifying the future..

    anyone who thinks Jonas should start in his first season is insane so we need someone to play C for at least the next 2-3 years

    i really dont like the idea of trying to be bad so we get a high pick... i say add a few pieces & let the cards fall were they may. i think many will be suprised at just were we finish with or without chandler..

    as for the mediocrity comment... i just want them to play to there potential..compete every night for full 48...if they win great if not then think about picks.. im tired of the T.O Tanking Mentality... it does nothing for our confidence & is actually anti productive as far as development... i sure as hell dont want to develop a lossing mentality...

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm back on the Bargnani bandwagon on one condition: the draft rule stays the same. Being back on the bandwagon, the Raptors should go get Tyson Chandler.

    Here is why:

    1) Chandler can only be offered a 4 year contract. He will be 33 in the last year of the contract. He will always have trade value in the life of his contract. If Jonas comes over and is capable of starting immediately, he can be traded, however, I do not think this will be the case. This allows JV to develop and would be ready to take over in his 4th year. JV would have lots of minutes behind Chandler who averaged 28mpg in Dallas last season and 32mpg in the playoffs. The contract to Chandler should be front loaded, i.e. 4 year/$40M deal at $11.5/10.5/9.5/8.5 in each season. With $8M in cap space, a trade or cut will have to happen to free up $3.5M.

    2) Bargnani is going to shock us all. Anyone who follows the stock market knows when pessimism reaches its lowest is when markets generally skyrocket up. Bargnani's stock cannot get any lower. I think the combination of not having to play C, to not have to be the last line of defense, improved conditioning, an end to the coddling from BC/Gheridini, and a hard ass coach will bring out the best in him. I'm not expecting miracles but defensive production like David West or rebounding numbers like Nene are not unrealistic. If he can do this, any team in the league would want him.

    3) If freshmen are permitted to stay in the draft, the 2012 draft is stacked. If Bargnani shocks Raptorville with Chandler in the front court with him, I think the Raptors could challenge for the playoffs (low seed, of course). The Raptors could draft a very strong player in the 12-15 range. 8 of the top 10 players in the draft are PF's. Quincy Miller or Kidd-Gilchrist could easily be available OR the Raptors could package their pick with a player and/or a future draft pick to move up in the draft.

    4) The Raptors could still have about $1011M in contract space next summer.

    I am ready for the ridicule.... bring it.
    I think Chandler will be a great fit with the Raps. I only have two concerns, overpaying and injuries/wear and tear.

    Because of his performance in the playoffs and in the finals with the Mavs, he's become a hot commodity and a lot of teams will be going after him. If the Raps want him, they will need to overpay. The other is injury/wear and tear. I dont think he's ever played an 82-game season is his whole career.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think Chandler will be a great fit with the Raps. I only have two concerns, overpaying and injuries/wear and tear.

    Because of his performance in the playoffs and in the finals with the Mavs, he's become a hot commodity and a lot of teams will be going after him. If the Raps want him, they will need to overpay. The other is injury/wear and tear. I dont think he's ever played an 82-game season is his whole career.
    Yeah.. I think you are in danger of going after someone who played well in a contract year. He has shown in the past that he doesn't do as well on a non-contending team.

    If the Raptors really wanted to get a top center talent for the future, then I'd be happier going after Gasol than Chandler.

    In my opinion Gasol > Nene > Chandler.

    Yet Chandler will get paid as much or even more than the other two.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Get a cheap vet C and call it a day. Play out the season hard and see what happends

  11. #51
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    I'd try to go after Nene before Chandler. I don;t know why, but I think Nene fits better than Chandler - he's more consistent and not as injury prone.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Bryan could try and convince Rasho to come back for one more season

    This season is to test what we have. If we spend a lot of money on a center (which we'd have to do to get them here), and it doesn't work out - we will be impacting our rebuild. I would prefer not to gamble on our rebuild at this stage.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I'd try to go after Nene before Chandler. I don;t know why, but I think Nene fits better than Chandler - he's more consistent and not as injury prone.
    I'm not sure I agree.

    Chandler played 35 games in 2003-2004, 45 in 2008-2009, and 51 in 2009-2010. Every other year 71, 75, 80. 79, 73, 79, and 74 last year. I don't recall what was the issue in 2003/04 but his left foot/ankle was the problem in 2008-2010. If he is healed from this, I don't see a reason to discriminate if he passes the medical.


    Nene played 80, 77, 55, 1, 64, 16, 77, 82, and 75 games. He has torn his ACL, had cancer, and had numerous groin/hip/knee/thumb issues.

    I think Nene is a great individual defender but I'd give the nod to Chandler for help and mobility on defense.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Yeah.. I think you are in danger of going after someone who played well in a contract year. He has shown in the past that he doesn't do as well on a non-contending team.

    If the Raptors really wanted to get a top center talent for the future, then I'd be happier going after Gasol than Chandler.

    In my opinion Gasol > Nene > Chandler.

    Yet Chandler will get paid as much or even more than the other two.
    I dont think Chandler only played good during contract years. If you look at his stats, the numbers are pretty much consistent, except for when he played in Charlotte, which i think should be a write off since he was out 22 games.

    The reason why id go after Chandler rather than Gasol or Nene is because Chandler is more of a defender and rebounder rather than an offensive player, which the other 2 are. And the thing that i like most about him is he's not only a physical defender, but also a rim defender, which the Raps are sorely lacking. Gasol and Nene are good defenders as well, but not as good as defending the rim as Chandler is.

    My contention with acquiring Chandler is that he's a fairly young bigman that will actually fill a need for the Raptors. Again, i dont suggest overpaying, acquire him if the price is right and manageable. Matt52 explained it pretty well, there are still outs incase it doesnt work but i highly doubt that it wont, unless he pouts and wants out. As ive read in a couple of previous posts, bigmen are hard to comeby so now that one is actually within reach, why not reach out and attempt to snag him?
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Sure, I am pessimist about predicting stradom on teenagers who have yet to play one game against NBA type competition.

    However, never I had said something like "we need to tank to give us a chance at drafting a franchise player because it is the only way we'll ever get out of this mediocrity", about the only consistent team message I read from you from the past 18 months.

    You're a one-trick pony.
    If you think that then you read about as selectively as my kids hear.

    Besides, have I been wrong about anything, team-wise in the last 18 months? When the season started after Bosh left, I was arguing against all that said the Raptors had a good chance to make the playoffs and that fans should brace themselves for a long season. And then they went out and won 22 games. There was also a rather vocal group that talked about how Bargnani would finally come into his own after being allowed to be the #1 option, and that he'd improve his rebounding and defense. I countered that by pointing to the fact that after 4 years, there's no reason to think he'll suddenly change.

    I also consistently talked about how Ed Davis, DeRozan and Amir should have bright futures and should be part of the team, long term. I've constantly defended Calderon and always been supportive of Colangelo and even Triano, who I felt got far too much blame for not being able to do much with a young team without a whole lot of talent.

    I've never been one who cared whether everyone liked him, but what I do care about is when people mis-characterize me. I get that you don't like me and I'm fine with that, and I've mostly ignored your constant not-so-subtle shots at me (including defending you to a mod, at one point), but I don't particularly appreciate being called something I'm not. Have I been consistent with my message? Sure. Not sure what's wrong with that. At least I care about the future prospects of the team beyond whether they're going to be a worthy competitor to a night out at the movies.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    4) The Raptors could still have about $1011M in contract space next summer.
    $1011 million???? Really? Holy crap, that's a lot of cap space. They should go after Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, as well as try and take on RUdy Gay's contract and all the amnestied players they can. Raptors dynasty, here we come!!!!
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    $1011 million???? Really? Holy crap, that's a lot of cap space. They should go after Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, as well as try and take on RUdy Gay's contract and all the amnestied players they can. Raptors dynasty, here we come!!!!
    I will be sure to add the '/' I forgot.

    That was not the ridicule I was expecting.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If you think that then you read about as selectively as my kids hear.

    Besides, have I been wrong about anything, team-wise in the last 18 months? When the season started after Bosh left, I was arguing against all that said the Raptors had a good chance to make the playoffs and that fans should brace themselves for a long season. And then they went out and won 22 games. There was also a rather vocal group that talked about how Bargnani would finally come into his own after being allowed to be the #1 option, and that he'd improve his rebounding and defense. I countered that by pointing to the fact that after 4 years, there's no reason to think he'll suddenly change.

    I also consistently talked about how Ed Davis, DeRozan and Amir should have bright futures and should be part of the team, long term. I've constantly defended Calderon and always been supportive of Colangelo and even Triano, who I felt got far too much blame for not being able to do much with a young team without a whole lot of talent.

    I've never been one who cared whether everyone liked him, but what I do care about is when people mis-characterize me. I get that you don't like me and I'm fine with that, and I've mostly ignored your constant not-so-subtle shots at me (including defending you to a mod, at one point), but I don't particularly appreciate being called something I'm not. Have I been consistent with my message? Sure. Not sure what's wrong with that. At least I care about the future prospects of the team beyond whether they're going to be a worthy competitor to a night out at the movies.
    I see youve found another friend Tim, hahaha

    Ive butted heads with Tim numerous times and i agree with this, he's been consistent with his arguments and always backed them up. Doesnt mean you have to agree with them all the time....hehehe.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    $1011 million???? Really? Holy crap, that's a lot of cap space. They should go after Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, as well as try and take on RUdy Gay's contract and all the amnestied players they can. Raptors dynasty, here we come!!!!
    hahahahahahahahaha i kinda saw that too but let it slide

    you can throw as much money at these guys doesnt mean theyll sign!

  20. #60
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    as a fan i want them to win it all but im being realistic here..i think even without chandler well be a mediocre team fighting for a spot...& while the raps never had a lot to work with last season trianos defencive scheme was brutal & the whole league exploited it..WAY too much help defence, on many nights teams just passed around & watched us scramble with our heads up our ass's
    I think Triano was trying to work with what he had, and what he had were a lot of players who were simply not good defensive players. And you think that with Chandler the Raptors will be a playoff team and fighting for a spot without him? And what makes you think they'll be able to improve by a stunning 15-20 wins just with a new coach?

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    how exactly is signing chandler morgaging the future??? all that is lost is money... if he doesnt work out there is amnisty....i dont see it as morgaging the future at all.. i see it as solidifying the future..
    Have you not been reading any of the comments on this thread? By getting Chandler, the Raptors probably will gain more wins, which means a lower draft pick and less chance of getting a franchise player.

    Also you can't amnesty a contract signed during the new CBA.

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    anyone who thinks Jonas should start in his first season is insane so we need someone to play C for at least the next 2-3 years
    Why? I'm not expecting him to play 35 mpg, but 'd be fine with trying him out as a starter and see how he handles it. He's be 20 by the time he comes to the NBA and probably quite a bit stronger. Chris Bosh was 19 when he was a rookie for the Raptors and he started all but 9 games he played. And I'd say Valanciunas is bigger now than Bosh was at the same age.

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    i really dont like the idea of trying to be bad so we get a high pick... i say add a few pieces & let the cards fall were they may. i think many will be suprised at just were we finish with or without chandler..
    It's plans like that that create mediocre teams. I also think that some fans are about as optimistic as they were last season when many of them were talking playoffs.

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    as for the mediocrity comment... i just want them to play to there potential..compete every night for full 48...if they win great if not then think about picks.. im tired of the T.O Tanking Mentality... it does nothing for our confidence & is actually anti productive as far as development... i sure as hell dont want to develop a lossing mentality...
    When exactly have the Raptors had a tanking mentality? You do know the reason they are in the position they are in is because management tried to squeeze as many wins out as he could, instead of coming to the realization that maybe the team simply didn't have the foundation to be a contender. In fact, that's been the problem from just about day 1. Let's just try and win as many games as possible and try and add pieces as we go. It's worked wonderfully so far, hasn't it?
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