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Thread: Chisholm: What to do about the C position? Forget Tyson Chandler (212)

  1. #61
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I will be sure to add the '/' I forgot.

    That was not the ridicule I was expecting.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure I agree.

    Chandler played 35 games in 2003-2004, 45 in 2008-2009, and 51 in 2009-2010. Every other year 71, 75, 80. 79, 73, 79, and 74 last year. I don't recall what was the issue in 2003/04 but his left foot/ankle was the problem in 2008-2010. If he is healed from this, I don't see a reason to discriminate if he passes the medical.


    Nene played 80, 77, 55, 1, 64, 16, 77, 82, and 75 games. He has torn his ACL, had cancer, and had numerous groin/hip/knee/thumb issues.

    I think Nene is a great individual defender but I'd give the nod to Chandler for help and mobility on defense.
    Chandler's also a better rebounder. Nene has never shown himself to be a particularly good rebounder, despite his physical gifts.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont think Chandler only played good during contract years. If you look at his stats, the numbers are pretty much consistent, except for when he played in Charlotte, which i think should be a write off since he was out 22 games.

    The reason why id go after Chandler rather than Gasol or Nene is because Chandler is more of a defender and rebounder rather than an offensive player, which the other 2 are. And the thing that i like most about him is he's not only a physical defender, but also a rim defender, which the Raps are sorely lacking. Gasol and Nene are good defenders as well, but not as good as defending the rim as Chandler is.

    My contention with acquiring Chandler is that he's a fairly young bigman that will actually fill a need for the Raptors. Again, i dont suggest overpaying, acquire him if the price is right and manageable. Matt52 explained it pretty well, there are still outs incase it doesnt work but i highly doubt that it wont, unless he pouts and wants out. As ive read in a couple of previous posts, bigmen are hard to comeby so now that one is actually within reach, why not reach out and attempt to snag him?
    The key is that his price would have to be right and manageable.. I don't think that will happen. Chandler is a 2nd tier player (never been an allstar, 2nd team all defense once). He is this year's Turkogulu. He was noticed because he helped Dallas win it all. He was never in the lime light before last year, except for maybe when he was Paul's second in command in NO.

    If Hedo got 53M for 5 years.. Chandler will be asking for something like $50 for 4 years. That's a big piece of the cap space pie.. not sure I'd be up for that. If this is to see if Bargnani can play PF then that's a huge risk that I just don't want to take.

    If you really need a center and don't want a scrub, then I'd go after Dalembert. He has a Philly connection (so Stefanski can help out there). In my opinion he's just as good as Chandler without the heavy price tag, plus has Canadian roots - and would drive Rautins crazy - which would be fun to watch.

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    For those advocating a hard press to acquire Chandler, wouldn't D Jordan (i know a RFA) be a better asset probably for les money? Though Chandler was terrific last year he was not a difference maker on lesser teams and does have an injory history. I havea feeling that this is a case of buying high...really high if he agrees because of all the suitors for his services. Frontload a Jordan offer and we get a player very comparable with more upside, younger and a asset for future acquisition if JV turns out what we hope he does.

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    Chandler is nothing but fool's gold. If we overspend to acquire this guy, the only thing it'll prove is that Colangelo doesn't learn from his mistakes.

    Finding a defensive centre for one inconsequential season is not a high priority if we have our defensive centre arriving next year. I'd rather have Calderon play the 5 this year than overspend on Chandler.

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    I've said this before, and its been said in this thread, Chandler seems to have a tendency to play to the level of his team. He would be a great asset to a veteran/experienced team that is competitive.

    I have little faith that his play on this team would end up being what fans expect from him.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm back on the Bargnani bandwagon on one condition: the draft rule stays the same. Being back on the bandwagon, the Raptors should go get Tyson Chandler.

    Here is why:

    1) Chandler can only be offered a 4 year contract. He will be 33 in the last year of the contract. He will always have trade value in the life of his contract. If Jonas comes over and is capable of starting immediately, he can be traded, however, I do not think this will be the case. This allows JV to develop and would be ready to take over in his 4th year. JV would have lots of minutes behind Chandler who averaged 28mpg in Dallas last season and 32mpg in the playoffs. The contract to Chandler should be front loaded, i.e. 4 year/$40M deal at $11.5/10.5/9.5/8.5 in each season. With $8M in cap space, a trade or cut will have to happen to free up $3.5M.

    2) Bargnani is going to shock us all. Anyone who follows the stock market knows when pessimism reaches its lowest is when markets generally skyrocket up. Bargnani's stock cannot get any lower. I think the combination of not having to play C, to not have to be the last line of defense, improved conditioning, an end to the coddling from BC/Gheridini, and a hard ass coach will bring out the best in him. I'm not expecting miracles but defensive production like David West or rebounding numbers like Nene are not unrealistic. If he can do this, any team in the league would want him.

    3) If freshmen are permitted to stay in the draft, the 2012 draft is stacked. If Bargnani shocks Raptorville with Chandler in the front court with him, I think the Raptors could challenge for the playoffs (low seed, of course). The Raptors could draft a very strong player in the 12-15 range. 8 of the top 10 players in the draft are PF's. Quincy Miller or Kidd-Gilchrist could easily be available OR the Raptors could package their pick with a player and/or a future draft pick to move up in the draft.

    4) The Raptors could still have about $10/11M in contract space next summer.

    I am ready for the ridicule.... bring it.
    I wanted to add some more thoughts to the above:

    - This whole scenario, for me, depends on Bargnani. If he doesn't become the player we all wish he would, then it fails. If he does become the player we all wish he would be then, in my opinion, he would be an All-Star. History is not on my side here but, for the reasons listed above in #2, I'm putting my faith in him.

    - A wing to go after, in case the Raptors cannot get one in the draft, would be Wilson Chandler. He is starter material in the NBA. When he becomes available in March, the Raptors should keep the new $2.5M exception and give it all to him for one year. Why? Hopefully no one else will be able to offer as much money for the last 15-20 games for the season (that would be the equivalent of $7.5-10M for a pro-rated contract). Also the Raptors would then have Birds Rights* in re-signing him meaning they could offer an extra year and 7.5% raises versus 4.5%. (*I am assuming this to be the case, I could be wrong but I don't think so).

    - The Raptors should have about $10M in cap space next year - give as much of it as necessary to acquire Steve Nash for 2-3 years. Hopefully the Raptors make a run at the playoffs and pick in the mid teens and draft Kabongo.

    - Trade Ed Davis to Detroit for their 2012 draft pick. ED and Monroe would make a great front court pairing long term. Toronto uses Detroit's draft pick to get a wing (Kidd-Gilchrist or Quincy Miller).


    Now this all starts with the Raptors signing Tyson Chandler. If the chain of events went according to plan (unlikely would be as much of a reach as my new found expectations for Bargnani) the roster would be looking like this in 2012-13:

    PG: Nash, Kabongo
    SG: DeRozan,
    SF: W Chandler, Miller/Kidd-Gilchrist, JJ
    PF: Bargnani, Amir, Kleiza
    C: T. Chandler, JV, Alabi


    Help would be needed at SG if Barbosa was not resigned. We also have a 2012 second round draft pick or other trade bait available.

  8. #68
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    Your whole scenario not completely exploding in Colangelo's face, as you say, is Bargnani doing what no rational human being should expect, and that's to go against 5 years of history and change his personality completely. The chance of this happening, in my opinion, is far less than the chance of simply playing out the season with what they have and drafting a franchise player in June. To me, that's like eschewing the stock market in favour of buy lottery tickets as an investment portfolio.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Your whole scenario not completely exploding in Colangelo's face, as you say, is Bargnani doing what no rational human being should expect, and that's to go against 5 years of history and change his personality completely. The chance of this happening, in my opinion, is far less than the chance of simply playing out the season with what they have and drafting a franchise player in June. To me, that's like eschewing the stock market in favour of buy lottery tickets as an investment portfolio.
    Oh I know. The odds are extremely not in favour of this view, however, it remains a possibility.

    And if it fails they can be traded at the trade deadline. Chandler will always have value as long as he is not injured. Bargnani's value will always be in the eye of the beholder. Guaranteed another GM will take a gamble on all his 'potential'.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think Triano was trying to work with what he had, and what he had were a lot of players who were simply not good defensive players. And you think that with Chandler the Raptors will be a playoff team and fighting for a spot without him? And what makes you think they'll be able to improve by a stunning 15-20 wins just with a new coach?



    Have you not been reading any of the comments on this thread? By getting Chandler, the Raptors probably will gain more wins, which means a lower draft pick and less chance of getting a franchise player.

    Also you can't amnesty a contract signed during the new CBA.



    Why? I'm not expecting him to play 35 mpg, but 'd be fine with trying him out as a starter and see how he handles it. He's be 20 by the time he comes to the NBA and probably quite a bit stronger. Chris Bosh was 19 when he was a rookie for the Raptors and he started all but 9 games he played. And I'd say Valanciunas is bigger now than Bosh was at the same age.



    It's plans like that that create mediocre teams. I also think that some fans are about as optimistic as they were last season when many of them were talking playoffs.



    When exactly have the Raptors had a tanking mentality? You do know the reason they are in the position they are in is because management tried to squeeze as many wins out as he could, instead of coming to the realization that maybe the team simply didn't have the foundation to be a contender. In fact, that's been the problem from just about day 1. Let's just try and win as many games as possible and try and add pieces as we go. It's worked wonderfully so far, hasn't it?
    T.O sports fans have advacted tanking plenty of times over the last 20 years.. raps, leafs, jays to a certain degree.. its this fan mentality that creates an atmosphere were losing is acceptable & inevitable.. too pessamistic for my liking... the whole idea is to play to your potential..give all every night & to believe u can win..if all the young guys we have already mail it in night after night because were expected to loose, what good does that do for there development.. same goes for GM,s, coach's.. everyone has to try to be better & get better..
    one thing the raps have always been known for was having great young talent.. daman, VC,Tmac, camby, bosh, to name a few.. our prob. revolves around keeping the guys we have... why u may ask.... because we NEVER win...were always talking tanking... the endless rebuild... i for 1 am tired of that.. we need to create a winning attitude..all the top teams have it...since when have any of them advocated tanking??? NEVER

    while i some what agree to triano working with what he had... he never exactly bread confidence..& his defensive scheme was trash.. u play guys staight up till u need help... not constantly try to stear peeps into help defence... its way too predictable..

    ive said my piece

    u have the right to your opinion as do I

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I wanted to add some more thoughts to the above:

    - This whole scenario, for me, depends on Bargnani. If he doesn't become the player we all wish he would, then it fails. If he does become the player we all wish he would be then, in my opinion, he would be an All-Star. History is not on my side here but, for the reasons listed above in #2, I'm putting my faith in him.
    While I agree with your idea of acquiring Tyson Chandler, I don't agree the scenario depends on Bargnani.

    If, and that's a big if, Bargnani makes a significant leap forward, then you have a best case scenario. If he does not, you now have more flexibility on creating a package which includes Bargnani being shipped for a better player. The worst case scenario for the Raptors is if Chandler loses value very quickly.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Oh I know. The odds are extremely not in favour of this view, however, it remains a possibility.

    And if it fails they can be traded at the trade deadline. Chandler will always have value as long as he is not injured. Bargnani's value will always be in the eye of the beholder. Guaranteed another GM will take a gamble on all his 'potential'.
    I'm not so sure about that. You pair Bargnani up with a defensive center with a defensive coach and he still doesn't get it.. potential is dead at that point.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The key is that his price would have to be right and manageable.. I don't think that will happen. Chandler is a 2nd tier player (never been an allstar, 2nd team all defense once). He is this year's Turkogulu. He was noticed because he helped Dallas win it all. He was never in the lime light before last year, except for maybe when he was Paul's second in command in NO.

    If Hedo got 53M for 5 years.. Chandler will be asking for something like $50 for 4 years. That's a big piece of the cap space pie.. not sure I'd be up for that. If this is to see if Bargnani can play PF then that's a huge risk that I just don't want to take.

    If you really need a center and don't want a scrub, then I'd go after Dalembert. He has a Philly connection (so Stefanski can help out there). In my opinion he's just as good as Chandler without the heavy price tag, plus has Canadian roots - and would drive Rautins crazy - which would be fun to watch.
    IMO, that time, Turk was more of a want than a need. BC had a the chance to make a high-profile signing (at that time it was, high publicized since Hedo was a borderline allstar) and BC went for it. Hedo wanted to be "the man", which I dont think Chandler is the same. He just wants to get paid what he's due, and play. Im not sure what figures would be "just right" for Chandler, but i dont want him acquired if the Raps need to overpay. And yes, like what Matt52 said, what Bargnani does will greatly influence if signing Chandler is a success or not. But even if Bargnani doesnt play the way Chandler's skills will be optimized, you cant really be "stuck" with a guy like Chandler. He's a defensive bigman, and every team needs at least one.

    I wouldnt mind having Dalembert either. I think with the current Raps roster and when JV comes in, I think Chandler is a better fit. He's an excellent pick and roll center and we have a really good pick and roll PG. Plus he gets a lot of his points on putbacks which the Raps need since Bargnani likes to play on the perimeter.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. You pair Bargnani up with a defensive center with a defensive coach and he still doesn't get it.. potential is dead at that point.
    I agree. But i think GMs will still be interested, not for his potential, but rather what he already is, plainly a scorer.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. You pair Bargnani up with a defensive center with a defensive coach and he still doesn't get it.. potential is dead at that point.
    You very well may be right - and probably are.

    But a GM might say, "He needs a change of scenery." or, "He will work better with our coach." or, "We just traded for Dwight Howard and now we have Messina as an assistant so lets see what happens with Bargnani here in LakerLand."

    Colangelo has always shown the ability to get rid of a contract and if what I proposed failed, the Raptors are looking at one of the worst teams in the league anyways.

    To me it is a low risk, high reward proposition (high reward if it succeeds and high reward if it failed - unless Chandler got injured).

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You very well may be right - and probably are.

    But a GM might say, "He needs a change of scenery." or, "He will work better with our coach." or, "We just traded for Dwight Howard and now we have Messina as an assistant so lets see what happens with Bargnani here in LakerLand."

    Colangelo has always shown the ability to get rid of a contract and if what I proposed failed, the Raptors are looking at one of the worst teams in the league anyways.

    To me it is a low risk, high reward proposition (high reward if it succeeds and high reward if it failed - unless Chandler got injured).

    Okay fine.. I do believe in stupid GM's.. it's what makes the NBA go round. I'm sure Bryan will have less options available to him, and we may end up getting back a worse contract then Bargnani's. But...

    There is just one thing that irks me about this plan.. if it doesn't work (and I really don't think it will) then we could end up moving down the draft ladder, and could miss out on a top end player like Davis, Sullinger, Drummond or Barnes. We have a chance to get someone that good - I really don't want to miss it.

    And I don't think Detroit will give up their first rounder (unprotected) for Ed Davis. The only way Detroit gives up their pick is if you take Villanueva or Gordon with it (assuming they amnesty Hamilton), and the last thing we need is another PF or another SG, neither of which play a lick of defense.

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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    T.O sports fans have advacted tanking plenty of times over the last 20 years.. raps, leafs, jays to a certain degree.. its this fan mentality that creates an atmosphere were losing is acceptable & inevitable.. too pessamistic for my liking... the whole idea is to play to your potential..give all every night & to believe u can win..if all the young guys we have already mail it in night after night because were expected to loose, what good does that do for there development.. same goes for GM,s, coach's.. everyone has to try to be better & get better..
    one thing the raps have always been known for was having great young talent.. daman, VC,Tmac, camby, bosh, to name a few.. our prob. revolves around keeping the guys we have... why u may ask.... because we NEVER win...were always talking tanking... the endless rebuild... i for 1 am tired of that.. we need to create a winning attitude..all the top teams have it...since when have any of them advocated tanking??? NEVER

    while i some what agree to triano working with what he had... he never exactly bread confidence..& his defensive scheme was trash.. u play guys staight up till u need help... not constantly try to stear peeps into help defence... its way too predictable..

    ive said my piece

    u have the right to your opinion as do I
    Maybe we disagree on what "tanking" is. To me, tanking is intentionally losing. As far as I recall, the Raptors have NEVER done that. What they've done is just not win, which is completely different. In fact, Raptor history is rife with examples of grabbing over priced and/or over-the-hill veterans in order to try and squeeze out as many wins as possible. Kevin Willis, Charles Oakley, Antonio Davis, Hakeem Olajuwon, Mugsy Bogues, Dell Curry, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshall, Anthony Parker, Nesterovic, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu. I think one of the major problems with this franchise is that too many in charge care more about not losing that actually winning.

    And unlike other sports, in the NBA a single player can make a big impact on a team, so trying to draft high actually makes a lot of sense.
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I've said this before, and its been said in this thread, Chandler seems to have a tendency to play to the level of his team. He would be a great asset to a veteran/experienced team that is competitive.

    I have little faith that his play on this team would end up being what fans expect from him.
    I dont believe so. He played pretty well when he was with the bulls, they made it to the playoffs a couple of times with curry (3 years), Gordon (rookie), Deng (rookie), hinrich (1 yr), nocioni (rookie) duhon (rookie), and the same when he was traded to NO, paul, west, butler were within 3 years of their NBA careers.

    If he did well with Dallas last year, i think he'll do well with the Raps too, since some of the Mavs players have similar skillsets as some Raptors players. Both have a pass first PG, a slashing SG and a perimeter bigman.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. You pair Bargnani up with a defensive center with a defensive coach and he still doesn't get it.. potential is dead at that point.
    Bargnani is and will remain a scorer and a good outside shooter even if he does not make any progress as a defender and rebounder.

    I suspect he will always have some trade value because there is almost always a team in contention which thinks it needs just that kind of piece to put them over the top as the trade deadline approaches. It's unlikely the Raptors would maximize his trade value at that point but they would likely get something of value in return.

    From my perspective, I have no problem pairing whatsoever pairing Bargnani with a defensive big man this year rather than wait for one year and see how he pairs up with an early work in progress like JV. If the experiment fails with an finsihed product like Chandler, you know Bargnani is the main issue; if the experiment fails next year with JV, you will have to determine how much of it was due to JV's inexperience (best case) or talent level (worst case). As much as Ed Davis looks like he will be a force on the defensive end, in my opinion he showed many more encourgaing signs he will be good than he actually was good. Nothing special with that; there is always an adjustment to make when you move to a much higher level of competition and he did miss training camp.

    In my opinion, answerinbg questions early provides more opportunities to make the correct personel decisions and to create contingency plans with less variance. Again, just in my opinion, I think the Raptors are better off long-term creatng a sustainable winning environment than gambling they are just one franchise player to be a contender in a few short years.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Maybe we disagree on what "tanking" is. To me, tanking is intentionally losing. As far as I recall, the Raptors have NEVER done that. What they've done is just not win, which is completely different. In fact, Raptor history is rife with examples of grabbing over priced and/or over-the-hill veterans in order to try and squeeze out as many wins as possible. Kevin Willis, Charles Oakley, Antonio Davis, Hakeem Olajuwon, Mugsy Bogues, Dell Curry, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshall, Anthony Parker, Nesterovic, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu. I think one of the major problems with this franchise is that too many in charge care more about not losing that actually winning.

    And unlike other sports, in the NBA a single player can make a big impact on a team, so trying to draft high actually makes a lot of sense.
    But if youre not putting yourself in a position to win by not improving your team when you have the resources to do so, wouldnt that be defined as "tanking" as well?

    Coz if you put out pretty much the same team last year and you well know that the team didnt perform well, then historically speaking, shouldnt you be expecting the same results, which is "not winning"?

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