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Ed Davis put the work in this summer (Sun article added post 24)

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  • #31
    I had him on multiple fantasy teams so needless to say I looked at his player card often. He was listed as 215lbs all season on multiple sites. They might only update that stuff once a year before the season starts.

    The fact that he himself is getting out news of 17lbs of added mass would cause one to think the 215lbs number posted on many sites is what he was last season and heading into the summer. Last year he looked lean all season.

    Comment


    • #32
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      The problem with your theory is that the Raptors actually did worse AFTER they acquired Bayless and James Johnson.

      And while JJ does fill up the stat sheet, that doesn't exactly equate to wins.

      And, yes, Bargnani will be playing the PF position. Again, how does that equate to more wins?

      And while Davis adding muscle will definitely help, you know he was on the floor last year, too? The center doesn't really protect the rim and more than the PF. This seems to be a point you ignore when I make it.
      Just because we didn't win that many games last year as a team doesn't mean we can just dismiss James Johnson's numbers and say "he doesnt help the team win" the team had issues last year to do with defense which were not caused by any deficiency he had.

      I believe Bargnani's numbers will improve at the PF position because that is his "natural" position and he obviously will play better if he is more comfortable there. That doesn't seem like rocket science to me... just saying.

      About whether or not the Center position is more crucial than the PF position in terms of protecting the rim:

      Joel Anthony -----> Partner PF (Chris Bosh)
      Andrew Bynum -----> Partner PF (Pau Gasol)
      Tyson Chandler -----> Partner PF (Dirk Nowitzki)
      Jason Collins --------> Partner PF (Josh Smith)
      Marc Gasol ---------> Partner PF (Zack Randolph)
      Joakim Noah --------> Partner PF (Carlos Boozer)
      Jermaine O'Neal ---------> Partner PF (Kevin Garnett)
      Kendrick Perkins --------> Partner PF (Serge Ibaka)

      Thats a list of the eight teams that won at least one round in the playoffs and who their partner PF was. One theme is very common, the Center is a VERY defensive player only Marc Gasol who averages 12 pts a game can be considered an offensive threat at this time. Another theme that is outstanding is that the PF who they play with is usually a very offensive player, only Ibaka is an exception to this (averaging 9 pts a game). In most cases the PF is not known for their defense AT ALL, the exceptions to this are Josh Smith, and Kevin Garnett. Others might be decent defenders but are not known for their defense. Notice guys like Chris Bosh and Dirk Nowitzki (PF's of the two teams that made it to the finals) are not great defenders but their teams thrived when they were paired up with defensive players at the C.

      So please ... do not say that I ignore this point I never really considered it to valid of a criticism on your part. Do not dismiss the effect of a defensive Center on your team defense. Outside of the PG position the C is the most crucial defensive position, sure PF is important but not as important as the C.

      If I am right and Bayless can keep guys in front of him better than Calderon, and we fill our C spot with a shot blocker (Ed Davis) I think those two adjustments along with a defensive fanatic like Dwayne Casey as our head coach, should be enough to take us from last in defense to middle of the pack in defense. Thats how important I think PG and C are to our defense.

      And if we become a middle of the pack defensive team, I dont think its unrealistic to think we can slip into the playoffs as the 7th or 8th seed. Tanking FTW.
      "Defense wins championships."

      Comment


      • #33
        SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
        The difference is:

        1) We didnt get Bayless until the 2nd half of last year, and he never started until the last month during which he played his best ball.

        2) Demar only kicked it into the next level in the 2nd half of the year, and barbosa struggled with injuries the whole year.

        3) We only picked up James Johnson at the trade deadline and he filled up the stat sheet, Kleiza was injured most of last year.

        4) Andrea Bargnani wasnt playing his natural position, now he will be.

        5) Ed Davis is 20 lbs heavier and big enough to play the 5, so now we actually have someone that protects the rim. All accounts say that Alabi has improved too, and he is a defensive player.

        Last year our starting lineup at the beginning of the season was:

        PG- Calderon
        SG- Derozan
        SF- Kleiza
        PF- Bargnani
        C- Evans (we were doing good with Reggie at the 5 until he got hurt)

        Now our starting line up should look like this:

        PG- Bayless
        SG- Derozan
        SF- James Johnson
        PF- Bargnani
        C- Ed Davis

        Slightly different with each player coming in stronger, in better shape, and more mature than last year... I think its exciting.
        I think so too and I expect the Raptors to win 34 to 37% of their games with their current roster.

        When you consider Bargnani, Barbosa, Calderon, and A Johnson carried injuries significant enough to eventually sideline them, it's not surprising a team with not much depth like the Raptors lost a lot a games in the last month and a half.

        Comment


        • #34
          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          Just because we didn't win that many games last year as a team doesn't mean we can just dismiss James Johnson's numbers and say "he doesnt help the team win" the team had issues last year to do with defense which were not caused by any deficiency he had.
          It's not that I don't think he helps the team (when he plays well, I do think he does), but I don't think, at this point in his career, he really has much of an impact. And while James JOhnson has the tools to be a good defender, and played good defense at times, there were also numerous times when his defense wasn't any better than anyone else.

          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          I believe Bargnani's numbers will improve at the PF position because that is his "natural" position and he obviously will play better if he is more comfortable there. That doesn't seem like rocket science to me... just saying.
          I think he'll quickly find there really isn't much difference between the PF and center position. He certainly won't change his offense by "switching" to PF. And there is no evidence to suggest he'll play better defensively at PF. In fact he'll probably run into better scorers defending the PF position than he will centers. And many of them will not be the plodding, post up big man he is "best" at defending. He'll be asked to defend more faceup big men who can put the ball on the floor, something he's always had trouble defending.

          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          About whether or not the Center position is more crucial than the PF position in terms of protecting the rim:

          Joel Anthony -----> Partner PF (Chris Bosh)
          Andrew Bynum -----> Partner PF (Pau Gasol)
          Tyson Chandler -----> Partner PF (Dirk Nowitzki)
          Jason Collins --------> Partner PF (Josh Smith)
          Marc Gasol ---------> Partner PF (Zack Randolph)
          Joakim Noah --------> Partner PF (Carlos Boozer)
          Jermaine O'Neal ---------> Partner PF (Kevin Garnett)
          Kendrick Perkins --------> Partner PF (Serge Ibaka)

          Thats a list of the eight teams that won at least one round in the playoffs and who their partner PF was. One theme is very common, the Center is a VERY defensive player only Marc Gasol who averages 12 pts a game can be considered an offensive threat at this time. Another theme that is outstanding is that the PF who they play with is usually a very offensive player, only Ibaka is an exception to this (averaging 9 pts a game). In most cases the PF is not known for their defense AT ALL, the exceptions to this are Josh Smith, and Kevin Garnett. Others might be decent defenders but are not known for their defense. Notice guys like Chris Bosh and Dirk Nowitzki (PF's of the two teams that made it to the finals) are not great defenders but their teams thrived when they were paired up with defensive players at the C.

          So please ... do not say that I ignore this point I never really considered it to valid of a criticism on your part. Do not dismiss the effect of a defensive Center on your team defense. Outside of the PG position the C is the most crucial defensive position, sure PF is important but not as important as the C.
          I've never dismissed the effect of ANY defensive big man. But my point is that, unless a team plays zone 90% of the time, both big men have to protect the rim as much as the other. It comes down to what side of the court the ball is and what side of the court your big men are. Sometimes it's going to fall to your center, and sometimes it's going to fall to your PF.

          And the fact is that teams like Chicago, who have below average PFs defensively, struggled in the playoffs when they were on the floor a lot of the time. The other team simply took advantage of their weakness.

          And one reason there are so many defensive centers is because there are so few 7 footers who can score and not hurt their team on the other end. To be successful, you generally need at least one big man who commands double teams, and there are a lot more good offensive PFs than center.

          As for your assertion that PG is the second most important position defensively, history says differently. Plenty of teams have won Championships with PGs that were average or even below average defensively. Teams with even one below average big man defensively who have won Championships are EXTREMELY scarce. Dirk, despite his reputation as I've said, is actually a decent defender, mostly because he understand team defense. And Bosh is actually a better defender than a lot of Raptor fans have given him credit for- I, for one, never understood that criticism.

          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          If I am right and Bayless can keep guys in front of him better than Calderon, and we fill our C spot with a shot blocker (Ed Davis) I think those two adjustments along with a defensive fanatic like Dwayne Casey as our head coach, should be enough to take us from last in defense to middle of the pack in defense. Thats how important I think PG and C are to our defense.
          Defense is way more than being able to keep your man in front of you. And in the NBA NO PG can keep their man in front of them. Especially with the current rules. Besides, IF Bayless is a better defender (and that's a big if, at this point) he's not in the same league on the other end of the court. Calderon, for all his weaknesses, consistently makes his team better simply by being on the court.

          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          And if we become a middle of the pack defensive team, I dont think its unrealistic to think we can slip into the playoffs as the 7th or 8th seed. Tanking FTW.
          Fist of all, going from last on defense to middle of the pack would be a massive, massive improvement, and unless Colangelo is going to sign Chandler and Battier, I simply don't see that happening. This is a young, inexperienced team with only a few above average defenders on the entire roster. Casey isn't a miracle worker, which seems to be what you're expecting.

          Besides, simply becoming a middle of the pack defensive team isn't going to win 20 more games for them. New Jersey was in the middle of the pack defensively. The Clippers, Philly and Charlotte were actually better than average, defensively, and none of them were close to making the playoffs. And all three of those teams have MUCH better defenders than the Raptors do.

          I just think you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. Besides, that territory you're talking about is exactly where the Raptors have been for most of their 16 years existence. I just don't see why you want to see more of that, since it has certainly not been successful for them.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • #35
            SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
            The difference is:

            1) We didnt get Bayless until the 2nd half of last year, and he never started until the last month during which he played his best ball.

            2) Demar only kicked it into the next level in the 2nd half of the year, and barbosa struggled with injuries the whole year.

            3) We only picked up James Johnson at the trade deadline and he filled up the stat sheet, Kleiza was injured most of last year.

            4) Andrea Bargnani wasnt playing his natural position, now he will be.

            5) Ed Davis is 20 lbs heavier and big enough to play the 5, so now we actually have someone that protects the rim. All accounts say that Alabi has improved too, and he is a defensive player.

            Last year our starting lineup at the beginning of the season was:

            PG- Calderon
            SG- Derozan
            SF- Kleiza
            PF- Bargnani
            C- Evans (we were doing good with Reggie at the 5 until he got hurt)

            Now our starting line up should look like this:

            PG- Bayless
            SG- Derozan
            SF- James Johnson
            PF- Bargnani
            C- Ed Davis

            Slightly different with each player coming in stronger, in better shape, and more mature than last year... I think its exciting.
            It's eerie how similar this is to last year's optimism. I remember some people talking about how:

            1. Calderon would finally be healthy, he and Jack would form another great PG tandem.

            2. DeMar had really worked on his handle and his shot, was scoring a lot in the pre-season, was really going to break out (this one was at least partially correct).

            3. Kleiza was going to help space the floor, was a great pickup, etc etc.

            4. Bargs would be better with Bosh gone.

            5. Reggie Evans would give them a leader, would impart some toughness, and the team would improve defensively with him on the floor.

            Now obviously these things don't all correlate directly, my point is simply that in the pre-season fans never seem to account for injuries and assume that every player on the team is going to take a big step forward or play to their potential. Never, ever works out that way.

            You look at the new starting lineup and see youth, athletic ability and talent, but what you ignore is their collective inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see who will step up, but we go through this same song and dance of high expectations and sobering realities every season.

            Comment


            • #36
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I think he'll quickly find there really isn't much difference between the PF and center position. He certainly won't change his offense by "switching" to PF.
              Why should he switch it? I don't think Bargnani was an issue on the offensive end of the court.

              While Amir Johnson was more efficient, I don't think anyone would expect him to continue at the same efficiency if he had a usage rate of 20% or more. Consider a line-up of Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, James Johnson, Demar DeRozan, and Jose Calderon (another efficient player), what are their usage rate when on the floor?

              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              In fact he'll (Bargnai will) probably run into better scorers defending the PF position than he will centers. And many of them will not be the plodding, post up big man he is "best" at defending. He'll be asked to defend more faceup big men who can put the ball on the floor, something he's always had trouble defending.
              How can that be possible? You have said on many occasions that Bargnani generally defended the least talented, offensively speaking, big regardless whether it was a PF or C.

              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I've never dismissed the effect of ANY defensive big man. But my point is that, unless a team plays zone 90% of the time, both big men have to protect the rim as much as the other.
              Nowitzki was not the closest big man to the rim on 50% of the Miami possessions. I thought he played much more like a disruptor (a bit like a roamer coming out to disrupt the play) than a rim protector.

              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              And the fact is that teams like Chicago, who have below average PFs defensively, struggled in the playoffs when they were on the floor a lot of the time. The other team simply took advantage of their weakness.
              In my opinion, Chicago's struggles in the playoffs were far more due to Rose being the sole offensive option way too too often. Miami scored 82, 85, 96, 101, and 83 to win the series and thus it is really hard for me to understand how Chicago struggled on the defensive end. As much as I like Noah, it was really painful to see him on the offensive end in the Heat series (6.0 ppg on 13/41 shooting).

              Comment


              • #37
                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                Why should he switch it? I don't think Bargnani was an issue on the offensive end of the court.

                While Amir Johnson was more efficient, I don't think anyone would expect him to continue at the same efficiency if he had a usage rate of 20% or more. Consider a line-up of Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, James Johnson, Demar DeRozan, and Jose Calderon (another efficient player), what are their usage rate when on the floor?
                Obviously as a player's usage goes up, his efficiency is going to go down, most of the time. But I'd rather have more efficient players on the court as much as I could. Besides, a lineup like that isn't going to get many wins anyway, so it doesn't matter. Of course, neither would lineup where Bargnani would replace one of the bigs.

                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                How can that be possible? You have said on many occasions that Bargnani generally defended the least talented, offensively speaking, big regardless whether it was a PF or C.
                Yes, and my comment is not contradicted by that. The fact is that there are far more talented PFs in the NBA than centers (partially due to the fact that many players big enough to play center don't want to), especially offensively, so if Bargnani is going to be defending the PF position the majority of the time, he's going to have to defend better offensive players. And Bargnani struggles the most, defensively one on one, against players who can put the ball on the floor, something he is going to see A LOT more defending the PF position.

                Unless Casey decides to continue to have Bargnani defend the opposing team's least productive big man, he's going to facer better players. And if he does defend the least productive big man, then there's really not going to be much of a difference from last season.

                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                Nowitzki was not the closest big man to the rim on 50% of the Miami possessions. I thought he played much more like a disruptor (a bit like a roamer coming out to disrupt the play) than a rim protector.
                If Nowitztki wasn't the closest big man to the rim on 50% of the Miami possessions, doesn't that mean he was the closest big man to the rim on the other 50% of Miami possessions, thus proving my point?

                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                In my opinion, Chicago's struggles in the playoffs were far more due to Rose being the sole offensive option way too too often. Miami scored 82, 85, 96, 101, and 83 to win the series and thus it is really hard for me to understand how Chicago struggled on the defensive end. As much as I like Noah, it was really painful to see him on the offensive end in the Heat series (6.0 ppg on 13/41 shooting).
                There were a multitude of reasons the Bulls ended up losing to Miami, one of which was a lack of offensive production outside of Rose, but Miami did often take advantage of Boozer's lack of defense. One thing working in Chicago's favour against Miami, though was the fact that Miami had only one big man who was a threat to score, at all. The low scoring, I felt, was more due to the pace of the games than anything. Quite frankly, I think both teams are quite flawed, but the East doesn't have a team that isn't in the same boat, so it really didn't matter to much until the Finals.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • #38
                  Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                  It's eerie how similar this is to last year's optimism. I remember some people talking about how:

                  1. Calderon would finally be healthy, he and Jack would form another great PG tandem.

                  2. DeMar had really worked on his handle and his shot, was scoring a lot in the pre-season, was really going to break out (this one was at least partially correct).

                  3. Kleiza was going to help space the floor, was a great pickup, etc etc.

                  4. Bargs would be better with Bosh gone.

                  5. Reggie Evans would give them a leader, would impart some toughness, and the team would improve defensively with him on the floor.

                  Now obviously these things don't all correlate directly, my point is simply that in the pre-season fans never seem to account for injuries and assume that every player on the team is going to take a big step forward or play to their potential. Never, ever works out that way.

                  You look at the new starting lineup and see youth, athletic ability and talent, but what you ignore is their collective inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see who will step up, but we go through this same song and dance of high expectations and sobering realities every season.
                  Honestly I dont thing my high expectations of being a .500+ team are unrealistic. I watched every raptors game last year, and I think we are closer than some people think. I honestly believe the difference between a good team and a bad team can be very subtle.

                  I could care less that people on this forum were optimistic last year, why wouldnt they be, they are fans. I dont think their is anything wrong with that. You never heard me say "that the raptors are gonna win the championship this year" that is unrealistic, saying "I think the raptors will become a good team this year" is what every fan should be saying if you ask me.
                  "Defense wins championships."

                  Comment


                  • #39


                    I think he added 17 pounds of ink. Those are some truly horrific tattoos. He has stink lines all over his stomach! Yikes.
                    Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Part of it is maturation. He turned 22 over the summer. I'm 6'7" and between my 2nd and 3rd year of university I gained 20 pounds with some serious time in the weight room. Part of it was just getting older but the majority was training under a specific training program and diet (steak and eggs for breakfast, tuna for lunch, steak for supper - lol, not quite but close enough).
                      That's the kind of diet everybody should be eating. Low-carb. But an adult can't really put on more than about 5 pounds of actual muscle per year of weight training. Davis still has some physical maturing to do, so that may help account for it.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Brandon wrote: View Post
                        That's the kind of diet everybody should be eating. Low-carb. But an adult can't really put on more than about 5 pounds of actual muscle per year of weight training. Davis still has some physical maturing to do, so that may help account for it.
                        I most definitely disagree on the diet. That is my Kin degree and my wife's biochem/dietetics degree talking.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                          Honestly I dont thing my high expectations of being a .500+ team are unrealistic. I watched every raptors game last year, and I think we are closer than some people think.
                          This is the part that I don't get. I watched the same team you did last year, the only difference is that my expectations are tempered by reality. My point is just that all you see is the upside, you don't see the pitfalls. Let me give you some examples.

                          1. The expected starting lineup you posted? They don't even make 82games.com's list of top-20 5-man units for playing time. That means they've played less than 35 minutes together as a group. Davis has only played about half a season with Bargs and DeRozan, as have Bayless and Johnson. In other words, they're starting off with very little chemistry and they're already a pretty inexperienced group of individuals to begin with.

                          2. And that's important because this is a shortened season, with next to zero training camp and next to zero time for practice throughout the season. Oh and they've got yet another new coach, with a new defensive philosophy and at least some new offence to work in. The shortened schedule favours teams with continuity, which is pretty much the opposite of what the Raps will have.

                          3. You mentioned that the Raps were bit by the injury bug last year. Guess what? Those same injury prone players are still on the team. Barbosa has played 70, 44 and 58 games his last 3 seasons. Calderon has played exactly 68 in his previous 3. Kleiza is coming off of surgery and so is Alabi. The Raps are a couple of injuries at the 5, 3 or 1 away from being right back in the same position they were last year. Very rarely does a team go through the year without injuries, especially one where there's a lot less recovery time during the season.

                          4. We don't yet know who the Raps might add by the time the season starts, but one ting is for sure: they'll be trying to dump certain players as the season goes on. Barbosa is all but guaranteed to be gone at the deadline if the Raps can get someone younger or some sort of pick back in return. I'm not going to speculate on Bargs and Calderon, but their names will come up. Point is, it's pretty unlikely the Raps are going to see an infusion of talent during the season; the opposite is likely true.

                          Point is, a lot has to break right for the Raps to see the kind of turnaround you're hoping for, including big steps forward from the majority of the players. Problem is, as much can go wrong as can go right. So continue to be optimistic if you like, just be aware that you're pinning your hopes to something very fragile.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            I most definitely disagree on the diet. That is my Kin degree and my wife's biochem/dietetics degree talking.
                            Your degrees talk?!?!? Mine just sit there doing nothing. That's pretty cool. Of course, we didn't even have email when I was in University, so times obviously have changed.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #44
                              Agree with Lark. For the Raps to come close to .500 ball, pretty much everything needs to go right for a full season. And I don't remember that ever happening to any team (in any sport).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                If Nowitztki wasn't the closest big man to the rim on 50% of the Miami possessions, doesn't that mean he was the closest big man to the rim on the other 50% of Miami possessions, thus proving my point?
                                No Tim.

                                I should have written Nowitzski was not the closest man to the rim on much more than 50% of the Miami possessions to eliminate the potential confusion.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                There were a multitude of reasons the Bulls ended up losing to Miami, one of which was a lack of offensive production outside of Rose, but Miami did often take advantage of Boozer's lack of defense. One thing working in Chicago's favour against Miami, though was the fact that Miami had only one big man who was a threat to score, at all. The low scoring, I felt, was more due to the pace of the games than anything.
                                Interesting.

                                The Bulls averaged 98.6 points during the regular season. The points came from taking an average of 80.3 shots and 24.5 free throws per game.

                                The Bulls averaged 87.2 points in the Heat series. The Bulls took 82.6 shots (including 19.8 3-shot attempts) and 23.2 free throws a game. The Bulls would have scored 100.8 points per game in the Miami series if they had converted their shots and free throws at the same rate they converted them during the season. But they did not. Their percentages for the season were 46.2% (FG), 36.1% (3-PT) and 74.5% (FT) during the season and 39.1%, 31.3%, and 69.8% in the Heat series. A combination of the good effort by the Miami defenders and a poor showing by the Chicago shooters.

                                But it's hard to argue the pace was the main reason for the low scoring output when the Bulls averaged more shots in the Heat series than they did in the regular season.

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