Chisholm: The Raptors should consider moving Barbosa and Amir

[Tim W.]

Do you know how much he is making? 5.5 mil this year, going up by .5 till he caps at 7 mil, not exactly a huge amount. He would be one of the lowest paid starters on any team he goes to, and is more productive than many players making far more than him, I think he has decent trade value and moving him would be a welcome transaction to me.

Ya, I didn't understand that, either. The notion that Amir is overpaid never made sense, and the idea that his salary would prevent a team from going after him doesn't make any sense. I don't know of a contender out there (outside of Oklahoma) that doesn't have a guy making more money than Amir coming off the bench.

[WJF]

I still disagree with the notion that trading a specific player sends a message, especially when each player has a specific set of unique skillsets that definitely differ from one another in the case of Bargnani/Amir. Bargnani is a finesse scorer that needs to improve defense & rebounding, whereas Amir is a banger who also needs to improve his offense and defense, in order for either one of them to be considered legit starting PF in this league.

The only person who that decision to trade one player while keeping another sends a message to is you, who has clearly let his opinions be known. First, each personnel decision is mutually exclusive and every trade/signing should be evaluated on its own, not in comparison to something that might have or could have or should have happned (especially when you don't truly know the variables of those other possible decisions). Second, you have your preference of Amir over Bargnani, but it's not a universal opinion, no matter how often you assert your opinion as a 100%, black & white, night & day, fact. It's still just your opinion.

The truth is, there are many people just on this forum that think Amir will never amount to more than an overpaid backup who is a redundant, older, overpriced version of Ed Davis, who will never amount to anything nearly as good as what Bargnani is, let alone could develop into under Casey. I could be wrong and I welcome differing opionions, but that is still how I feel right now and I am still in support of trading Barbosa and Amir as Raptor trade chips #1a and #1b.

Well said, I second this!

[NoPropsneeded]

Trading Amir before Bargnani sends a signal to the players and fans that they don't value hard working, defensive players and value enigmas over the real thing. I don't like that signal at all.

I don't care in the least that Davis and Amir are "similar" players. Amir has consistently worked hard, done what has been asked, and even played injured because the Raptors needed him to.

Besides, Dale Davis and Antonio Davis showed that having two similar players can actually help your team.

i agree 100%

[Puffer]

Keep Amir
I don't have to care about what makes sense from a GM's perspective, because I am a fan and I watch the game for entertainment purposes, and I am entertained even when they don't win if I see the right kind of performance on the floor. I enjoy watching Amir work hard, shoot with insane efficiency, work hard on defense (where does this "he's not a good defender" bullshit come from. That's not what I have seen from him, especially now that he has cleaned up his fouling problem) and always supports his team mates.

I want him to stay because I like cheering for him personally.

[Maleko]

Trade Barbosa. I have always enjoyed him as a player, but his value is in a trade now. I am split on Amir, I like him for the team, but it all very definitely depends on what can be gained in return. I would say keep Amir, without knowing what can come back of proper (in my eyes) value.

[raptors2012]

So what happens if we get pick one or two of next years draft?

Do you draft barnes just because hes what we need or pick up davis or drummond? Which really clogs up the pf position.

Personally I think drummond would look great with jonas in the front court. Makes up for his skinny frame.

[mcHAPPY]

So what happens if we get pick one or two of next years draft?

Do you draft barnes just because hes what we need or pick up davis or drummond? Which really clogs up the pf position.

Personally I think drummond would look great with jonas in the front court. Makes up for his skinny frame.

You take the best player available regardless of position and work the roster out later.

[Puffer]

You take the best player available regardless of position and work the roster out later.

+1

[FooTara]

Keep Amir
I don't have to care about what makes sense from a GM's perspective, because I am a fan and I watch the game for entertainment purposes, and I am entertained even when they don't win if I see the right kind of performance on the floor. I enjoy watching Amir work hard, shoot with insane efficiency, work hard on defense (where does this "he's not a good defender" bullshit come from. That's not what I have seen from him, especially now that he has cleaned up his fouling problem) and always supports his team mates.

I want him to stay because I like cheering for him personally.

I completely agree and I can say the same about Barbosa partially too. I really hope they keep Amir because I would consider offending the team to keep Bargnani. I am a fan of the game and Amir plays my type of game. If want to watch ugly Euro 7 footer I could just stick to the Bulgarian National league. I want the team to grow and to have players like Amir and Bayless - players that show heart,desire,hustle and willingness to improve and grow IN Toronto.

[Hugmenot]

I don't see how it doesn't send a message. While both have parts of their game they need to work on, only one is literally a big liability when he's on one end of the floor. So much so that, overall, the Raptors are actually a worse team when he's on the floor.

The Raptors were 19-47 (.288) when Bargnani played.
The Raptors were 3-13 (.188) when Bargnani did NOT play.

This data does not support your conclusion at all and in fact, it is an indicator the opposite is more likely.

[Tim W.]

The Raptors were 19-47 (.288) when Bargnani played.
The Raptors were 3-13 (.188) when Bargnani did NOT play.

This data does not support your conclusion at all and in fact, it is an indicator the opposite is more likely.

This is VERY circumstantial data. The questions one needs to ask, are:
1. What was the strength of schedule
2. Were other players injured at the time that may have affected the win/loss record.

And just so you know, I've already had this conversation with someone, so I know the answers, already. The games Bargnani missed were against stronger than average opponents. And players like Evans, Barbosa, Amir and Calderon, four veterans who seem to have a more positive impact than Bargnani, missed a lot of the games that Bargnani did.

While these stats from 82games aren't definitive, they are pretty persuasive.
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

[Hugmenot]

This is VERY circumstantial data. The questions one needs to ask, are:
1. What was the strength of schedule
2. Were other players injured at the time that may have affected the win/loss record.

And just so you know, I've already had this conversation with someone, so I know the answers, already. The games Bargnani missed were against stronger than average opponents. And players like Evans, Barbosa, Amir and Calderon, four veterans who seem to have a more positive impact than Bargnani, missed a lot of the games that Bargnani did.

While these stats from 82games aren't definitive, they are pretty persuasive.
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

It's interesting that after a MSc in Mathematics, another one in Actuarial Sciences, and 25+ years working in the field of data analysis and management, I must come on RR to learn the "truth" about which data sets can be summarily ignored and which ones are of much greater relevance.

I am not saying I know The Answer; just that you don't have it.

[Tim W.]

It's interesting that after a MSc in Mathematics, another one in Actuarial Sciences, and 25+ years working in the field of data analysis and management, I must come on RR to learn the "truth" about which data sets can be summarily ignored and which ones are of much greater relevance.

I am not saying I know The Answer; just that you don't have it.

Care to elaborate? It seems pretty logical, to me. And 82games.com isn't my website.