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Thread: Linsanity

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Well, the same argument could be said for Kentucky (read: John Wall) or Memphis.

  2. #62
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    John Wall is turning the ball at a lower rate than Lin. John Wall is two years younger than Lin. John Wall doesn't play in a system for an offensive mastermind known for greatly increasing the production of PGs. John Wall does a lot more on the court than Lin.

  3. #63
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    Are you seriously comparing the #1 overall draft pick vs. an undrafted guy here?

    Fine, I'll play along just for the heck of it:
    • Lin shoots the ball at a higher % everywhere
    • Lin has a higher PER
    • Lin has a higher assist %
    • Lin steals the ball more
    • Lin averages more points per minute
    • Lin does all these while averaging less minutes played


    Wall is the focal point of the offense while Lin is only the facilitator.

  4. #64
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    You're the one brought up John Wall for crying out loud.

    So you're rhyming out some stats that Lin is beating Wall in, in particular average stats and advanced stats that aren't weighted on sheer volume but you put the cherry on top by praising him for doing this with less minutes? Explain me how Lin is at a disadvantage for playing less minutes when you're referring to percentages and points per minute? How about turnovers per minute? What was Lin's PER at age 21(Wall's current age)? I don't know because he was still in Harvard.

  5. #65
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're the one brought up John Wall for crying out loud.
    If only to compare their turnover numbers and to explore the fact that they're both young guards.

    Protip: stop crying. It doesn't get you anywhere.

    So you're rhyming out some stats that Lin is beating Wall in, in particular average stats and advanced stats that aren't weighted on sheer volume but you put the cherry on top by praising him for doing this with less minutes? Explain me how Lin is at a disadvantage for playing less minutes when you're referring to percentages and points per minute?
    That's exactly what I'm trying to get at here. The sample size of games we have for Lin is too small to be useful. His other numbers will normalize and so will his turnovers.

    How about turnovers per minute? What was Lin's PER at age 21(Wall's current age)? I don't know because he was still in Harvard.
    Lin's PER in college is still higher than Wall's career PER. Nice try though. Anyways your point is moot because we're not comparing college careers.

  6. #66
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    That's exactly what I'm trying to get at here. The sample size of games we have for Lin is too small to be useful. His other numbers will normalize and so will his turnovers.
    Not to jump in, but it sounds like you're basing your entire argument on this VERY big assumption.
    There is no guarantee that this will be the case.
    As a young Point Guard, it is his JOB to protect the ball, and since starting Jeremy Lin has failed at that on an epicly RECORD level.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  7. #67
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Not to jump in, but it sounds like you're basing your entire argument on this VERY big assumption.
    There is no guarantee that this will be the case.
    As a young Point Guard, it is his JOB to protect the ball, and since starting Jeremy Lin has failed at that on an epicly RECORD level.
    I agree, but since this is the case for 99% of young PGs we've seen so far in the last few years, I think that's a pretty safe bet.

    He'll probably still be among league leaders in turnovers but it won't be on a "epicly RECORD" level.

    Btw, it's spelt "epically". :P

  8. #68
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Not to jump in, but it sounds like you're basing your entire argument on this VERY big assumption.
    There is no guarantee that this will be the case.
    As a young Point Guard, it is his JOB to protect the ball, and since starting Jeremy Lin has failed at that on an epicly RECORD level.
    Bingo and come playoff time when the bright lights are hitting him in the face, the crowds are louder and the defense is tighter what happens then? Who ever draws the Knicks will look to feast on Lin's inability to protect the ball and I don't blame them; especially at the end of games, you'll see smart coaches trap him.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post

    Btw, it's spelt "epically". :P
    When you start correcting their grammar or spelling, you have probably lost the debate.

    You guys are speaking about him decreasing his turnover rate as if it is simple.

    There are factors that come into play when we talk about any stat decreasing or increasing. Things like the system the player is in, the way he plays, the streak he is on (hot streak or cold streak), his momentum, his weaknesses, his strengths, all of these are important to consider.Would it be safe to say that the way Lin plays (very aggressive to the net/high energy/pushing the ball) makes him prone to turnovers? If so, then could we not say that for his turnover numbers to decrease over time as you say, there would need to be some tweaks (or maybe even some larger changes) to his game? It is not just as simple as "he gets better with the ball". This just adds more the the assumption you are making, that these numbers will go down. He may need to lose some of the things that ignited Linsanity from the start (aggressiveness and pace) to get those turnover numbers down.

    We have seen Lin turnover the ball this much in what looks to be a pretty good situation. He has all the confidence a guy can have without being Kobe, a system and a set of big men that cater to how he plays, some subpar competition, and without the pressure of playoff basketball in New York. To say his turnover numbers will normalize by the end of the season (correct me if I am wrong but you did say that?) with just stronger opponents and more pressure, I say that is a big assumption.

  10. #70
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    When you start correcting their grammar or spelling, you have probably lost the debate.

    You guys are speaking about him decreasing his turnover rate as if it is simple.

    There are factors that come into play when we talk about any stat decreasing or increasing. Things like the system the player is in, the way he plays, the streak he is on (hot streak or cold streak), his momentum, his weaknesses, his strengths, all of these are important to consider.Would it be safe to say that the way Lin plays (very aggressive to the net/high energy/pushing the ball) makes him prone to turnovers? If so, then could we not say that for his turnover numbers to decrease over time as you say, there would need to be some tweaks (or maybe even some larger changes) to his game? It is not just as simple as "he gets better with the ball". This just adds more the the assumption you are making, that these numbers will go down. He may need to lose some of the things that ignited Linsanity from the start (aggressiveness and pace) to get those turnover numbers down.

    We have seen Lin turnover the ball this much in what looks to be a pretty good situation. He has all the confidence a guy can have without being Kobe, a system and a set of big men that cater to how he plays, some subpar competition, and without the pressure of playoff basketball in New York. To say his turnover numbers will normalize by the end of the season (correct me if I am wrong but you did say that?) with just stronger opponents and more pressure, I say that is a big assumption.
    Great post R&W. And ya, as soon as I saw him correct my spelling mistake, (which I blame on iPhone typing) I knew we'd won. Haha

    But regardless, Lin is obviously a good story for the NBA, and for anyone else who can milk some fame out of it.
    (It's actually REALLY catchy):
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  11. #71
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    When you start correcting their grammar or spelling, you have probably lost the debate.
    Please elaborate.
    You guys are speaking about him decreasing his turnover rate as if it is simple.
    Give me an example of someone else in NBA history who has averaged 6 turnovers a game for his entire career. Actually, I dare you to find a player who has averaged 6 TO/G in a season.

    Can't find any?
    That's what I thought.

    (FYI the highest TO/G average was 5.0, set by Pistol Pete nearly 40 years ago)

    There are factors that come into play when we talk about any stat decreasing or increasing. Things like the system the player is in, the way he plays, the streak he is on (hot streak or cold streak), his momentum, his weaknesses, his strengths, all of these are important to consider.Would it be safe to say that the way Lin plays (very aggressive to the net/high energy/pushing the ball) makes him prone to turnovers? If so, then could we not say that for his turnover numbers to decrease over time as you say, there would need to be some tweaks (or maybe even some larger changes) to his game? It is not just as simple as "he gets better with the ball". This just adds more the the assumption you are making, that these numbers will go down. He may need to lose some of the things that ignited Linsanity from the start (aggressiveness and pace) to get those turnover numbers down.
    You pretty much answered your own question heres, so I won't say anything.

    We have seen Lin turnover the ball this much in what looks to be a pretty good situation. He has all the confidence a guy can have without being Kobe, a system and a set of big men that cater to how he plays, some subpar competition, and without the pressure of playoff basketball in New York. To say his turnover numbers will normalize by the end of the season (correct me if I am wrong but you did say that?) with just stronger opponents and more pressure, I say that is a big assumption.
    You're missing the point here.

    The current Lin is an statistical anomaly in the world of professional basketball. Of course I cannot say with certainty that his numbers will go down but if they don't then he would be an extremely significant deviation from the rest of his peers. The likelihood of this happening is negligible and for all means and purposes it should be considered zero.

    Many players in the NBA go through streaks like these. A quick search on BR reveals that a streak of 5 turnovers or more (i.e. a turnover-prone streak of at least 4 games) occurred 30 times in the past 5 years.


    Btw, how many turnovers did Lin have today?


    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Great post R&W. And ya, as soon as I saw him correct my spelling mistake, (which I blame on iPhone typing) I knew we'd won. Haha
    I'm going to pull a Red and White here and say:
    Only losers have to tell themselves they won.

    Anyways, bro, take a look at the box score, you won jack **** today.
    Last edited by Prime; Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:31 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Yes, but being able to get into Harvard without being a legacy (like Bush) or booster is definitely a testament to your hard work. I'm also willing to bet that the average IQ at Harvard is much much higher compared to, say, Ryerson.
    Harvard is nothing compared to Wharton, nothing!

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Ah I can not help but laugh at how emotional some people get about Jeremy Lin. To be honest, I do not think it is Jeremy Lin I do not like, but his general fans. It is things like Lin having one bad game and people who really fight for him say "It is just one game, he will bounce back" but then Lin will have a game with one turnover and all of a sudden it isn't just one game but a sign that he is improving his decision making and ball handling.

    Anyways, back to the general discussion. I do not think I said anything close to "Lin will maintain 6 turnovers a game for the rest of his career", and I doubt anyone thinks that. All I was trying to make clear is assuming that his turnover numbers go down to the point where they are not an issue with his game is silly. I do not think you have said anything that would change how I feel about that assumption yet, but whatever.

    Just a suggestion, try to keep emotion out of a legitimate discussion or debate (especially on the internet) because I feel it tends to cloud the actual topic. You have your opinions, I have mine. The fun part is convincing each other to change that opinion.

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post

    I've had a chance to watch some of Lin's games here and there and if a guy like DeRozan was getting calls like Lin gets he wouldn't be under the bus right now. Seriously, the officials are not treating him like a guy who just came out of D-league.
    I see the upside in derozan but to be honest when he is driving to the rim against 3 ppl I don't expect the refs to bail him out he shouldn't have been trying that s*** anyways. I personally don't like all the talk about he needs to be more agressive he just needs to take what the defense gives him.

  15. #75
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    He was gold last night with 13 assists to 1 turnover.

  16. #76
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default MDA out, what now?

    D’Antoni’s offensive system is unique in the NBA. It encourages fast breaks and quick shot making, literally encouraging players to shoot in seven seconds or less. This high-octane basketball is perfectly suited to a point guard who can see the floor and make quick decisions. A point guard like Jeremy Lin.

    In Phoenix, the synergy between D’Antoni’s system and Steve Nash’s skill set earned Nash back-to-back MVP awards. Lin seemed poised to become the East Coast answer to Nash. Now all that seems very much in doubt.

    In a more conventional offense, the point guard is called upon to beat his man off the dribble in a one-on-one (or isolation) situation and penetrate to the basket for a pass or a shot. This requires foot speed and leaping ability, as well as mercurial ball handling. Nash was lacking in those departments, and Lin may be even more limited in those areas Lin may be a quick study, but you simply can’t teach the foot speed of a Chris Paul or the rock-solid handle of a Deron Williams.

    When D’Antoni left Phoenix to come to New York, Nash’s productivity declined–his scoring average dropped by two points, and he had two fewer assists per 48 minutes–he and suffered similar drop-offs in other statistical categories. He went from being a superstar to just a star. Remember that Nash was a 34-year old veteran, who had previously functioned, if not flourished, in more conventional offense. Look for a much more serious decline from Lin, whose career as a starter isn’t yet 20 games old.

    What does the future hold for Lin? When asked to run a more conventional offense on other teams, his performance couldn’t earn him a roster spot, much less a starting job. He’s slow afoot by NBA standards and prone to turnovers and the team’s new system will undoubtedly require Lin to handle the ball under pressure, while creating his own shots. It’s not clear who the Knicks coach will be, but it’s a virtual guarantee that he won’t be running an offense like D’Antoni’s.
    Source: Forbes

    Six turnovers in 22 minutes in game one of post-MDA play.

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