Amir Johnson is the Rudy Ruettiger of the Toronto Raptors !!!

[WJF]

I expect all 3 players to be interchangeable between PF and C this season. The clear cut loser will be moved prior to Valanciunas arriving next year.

I don't think giving either Magloire or Gray heavy minutes does anything to help this team develop moving forward. But that's just my opinion.

My previous post was more for next year with Jonas than this year with the stop-gap bigs we signed.

[Brandon]

Everyone can be replaced. What there aren't a lot of in the NBA are athletic big men who hustle, rebound, defend, move well without the ball and score efficiently. If you think there are, then explain to me why guys like Drew Gooden and Tyrus THomas are getting paid more.

Honestly, I really don't understand where this type of criticism of Amir comes from.

An objective evaluation of the evidence.

[Nilanka]

Johnson is a plus offensive rebounder with no additional plus skills. He's a small, weak version of Tyrone Hill. He can be replaced. Ed Davis is a 2-way player with plus skills on both ends.

I'm not sure how you see such a difference between Amir and Ed's game. The only thing Ed has going for him is his relative inexperience. They're fairly equal rebounders, defenders and shot blockers at this point. And if anything, Amir's got a better jumper, and is a better FT shooter.

Also, what exactly is a "plus skill"? That sounds like a subjective term when you're trying to be objective.

[Brandon]

I'm not sure how you see such a difference between Amir and Ed's game. The only thing Ed has going for him is his relative inexperience. They're fairly equal rebounders, defenders and shot blockers at this point. And if anything, Amir's got a better jumper, and is a better FT shooter.

Also, what exactly is a "plus skill"? That sounds like a subjective term when you're trying to be objective.

A plus skill would be one that's above average. Amir Johnson, by any objective measurement, is a plus offensive rebounder. For a starting 4, he's a below-average defensive rebounder. Ed Davis has a wider frame and taller body and is already, in a truncated season with injuries and a lack of a training camp, a much better defensive rebounder than Johnson. Don't take my word for it, look at the numbers. I expect him to add strength and become a very good 2-way player and post defender. That ship has sailed for Johnson.

[Nilanka]

A plus skill would be one that's above average. Amir Johnson, by any objective measurement, is a plus offensive rebounder. For a starting 4, he's a below-average defensive rebounder. Ed Davis has a wider frame and taller body and is already, in a truncated season with injuries and a lack of a training camp, a much better defensive rebounder than Johnson. Don't take my word for it, look at the numbers. I expect him to add strength and become a very good 2-way player and post defender. That ship has sailed for Johnson.

But even with that definition of a plus skill, there is still room for interpretation. Can I assume you think Bargnani's scoring is a plus skill? On the surface, I would agree. Bargnani scores more points per game than the average player, therefore his scoring is considered a plus skill. But when we look at his FG%, Bargnani isn't above average, which begs the question, which stat provides more value when determining Bargnani's only plus skill (the final result, or the method in which he achieves that result)?

Anyway, I don't think Amir's ship has sailed. If you believe Bargnani can make defensive improvements under Casey (an area where he's not just bad, but he's atrocious), then it seems counter-intuitive to conclude that Amir cannot do the same, especially considering he would need to show much less improvement compared to Bargnani to be considered effective.

[Brandon]

But even with that definition of a plus skill, there is still room for interpretation. Can I assume you think Bargnani's scoring is a plus skill? On the surface, I would agree. Bargnani scores more points per game than the average player, therefore his scoring is considered a plus skill. But when we look at his FG%, Bargnani isn't above average, which begs the question, which stat provides more value when determining Bargnani's only plus skill (the final result, or the method in which he achieves that result)?

Anyway, I don't think Amir's ship has sailed. If you believe Bargnani can make defensive improvements under Casey (an area where he's not just bad, but he's atrocious), then it seems counter-intuitive to conclude that Amir cannot do the same, especially considering he would need to show much less improvement compared to Bargnani to be considered effective.

Yes, Bargnani's scoring is a plus skill for his position. Everything else about his game is "worst of all-time"-type stuff so it tends to cancel out any good he provides. No, I don't think he can improve defensively under Casey or anyone else.

[Tim W.]

I don't think it is as much criticism as it is trying to be a little more realistic on the guys ability. Amir is a solid bench player/spot starter. He runs the floor well, can finish on the pick n roll, and has developed a reliable 15 foot shot. I don't think he is an above average athlete at his position, nor is he a great rebounder or shot-blocker, he is decent at those things, but not great. I like the upside that Ed has more than Amir, I feel he will be a better rebounder than Amir and will have a little more versatility to his offensive game than Amir as well. The Argument that Andrea teamed with Ed as a Power forward tandem is better than an ED Amir PF tandem does have merit, for it to be dismissed is pure bias on that person. Andrea's ability to take players off the bounce, spread the floor, and his improved post game are all reasons that he can be a great ying to Ed's yang mixing up match-ups vs. the opponent. Now the argument on his lack of rebounding and defense can be made to favour Amir, and it is valid, but there is no clear cut answer to this debate.

EDIT: Tim, this is not directed at you, I just quoted your reply. It is a general comment to all the people who think this argument is cut and dry.

When I judge players, I judge them in two different ways. Skill level and winnability. A player like, say, Monta Ellis is a very good player. He's an elite scorer and probably one of the top 25 players in the league. Unfortunately, he's one dimensional, doesn't do the little things that help you win, especially play defense. So he's low on my winnability list. I'd take a guy like Wesley Matthews over him in a second if I'm building a team. Now Ellis is always going to be better paid than Matthews and will always get batter stats, but, to me, you can win with a guy like Matthews as your shooting guard a lot easier than you can with a guy like Ellis.

Amir, while technically not as skilled as a guy like David Lee, but I'd much prefer him on my team. Lee is a better scorer and rebounder than Amir, but his lack of defense is his fatal flaw (which I'll get to in a second). The other thing about Amir that too often gets overlooked is his hustle. Pat Riley famously said that hustle is a skill and I agree. And I think it's a lot more important a skill than is generally believed.

Hustle can affect a game as much as scoring, rebounding, shot blocking, defense or passing. Hustle can turn the tide of a game, but it also can be contagious. And it's not as if Amir is only hustle. He's more skilled than given credit for. He's an excellent pick and roll player, is a good (although not great) rebounder, is a good help defender, scores efficiently and now can hit the 15 footer.

What he doesn't have is a fatal flaw, like, for example, David Lee and his defense. That's very big, because players with fatal flaws often hurt you as much as they help you. And in the playoffs, those fatal flaws can, and usually will, be taken advantage of. And that's why players with fatal flaws rarely win Championships.

Even a guy like Shaq had a fatal flaw (his free throw shooting) but he was so dominant in just about every other area that it didn't matter.

Now, I don't see Amir as a star, and as long as Ed Davis is a Raptor even a starter, but I pick him over Bargnani because no matter how much he helps you on the offensive end, he's got two fatal flaws (defense and rebounding) that teams will (and have) take advantage of, especially in the playoffs. Teams can always manufacture points, get scoring from different places and have players create for their teammates, but you can't manufacture defense and you can't rely on two or three players to play defense.

[Tim W.]

A plus skill would be one that's above average. Amir Johnson, by any objective measurement, is a plus offensive rebounder. For a starting 4, he's a below-average defensive rebounder. Ed Davis has a wider frame and taller body and is already, in a truncated season with injuries and a lack of a training camp, a much better defensive rebounder than Johnson. Don't take my word for it, look at the numbers. I expect him to add strength and become a very good 2-way player and post defender. That ship has sailed for Johnson.

Amir is also an above average pick and roll player, an above average hustler, an above average team defender and, as of last season, an above average free throw shooter for his position. I wouldn't underestimate any of those skills.

I do agree that Ed Davis has a much more potential, but I'd much rather see the Raptors keep those two than one of them and Bargnani.

[Brandon]

Amir is also an above average pick and roll player, an above average hustler, an above average team defender and, as of last season, an above average free throw shooter for his position. I wouldn't underestimate any of those skills.

I do agree that Ed Davis has a much more potential, but I'd much rather see the Raptors keep those two than one of them and Bargnani.

I agree with everything you said in the post above, except that you are overestimating Johnson's defense. He can be a help defender but he's too small to defend the post. And you haven't mentioned his defensive rebounding.

I wouldn't have any objection to playing him off the bench if he didn't have a big contract for a fungible limited-minutes player. They need cap space and I'd be fine with shipping him out for a cheaper player.

I don't think there's any argument for keeping Bargnani. I'm not 100% certain he'd be in the league at all if the Raptors weren't on the hook for a guaranteed contract. He'd certainly be no better than a back-of-the-rotation guy on a winning team, if that.

[Tim W.]

I agree with everything you said in the post above, except that you are overestimating Johnson's defense. He can be a help defender but he's too small to defend the post. And you haven't mentioned his defensive rebounding.

I wouldn't have any objection to playing him off the bench if he didn't have a big contract for a fungible limited-minutes player. They need cap space and I'd be fine with shipping him out for a cheaper player.

I don't think there's any argument for keeping Bargnani. I'm not 100% certain he'd be in the league at all if the Raptors weren't on the hook for a guaranteed contract. He'd certainly be no better than a back-of-the-rotation guy on a winning team, if that.

I think Amir's defensive rebounding is about average. And I think his post defense will only gets better as he gets stronger. Remember the guy is only 23. And while I don't think Amir's help defense is great, I'd definitely say it's above average.

Do you think Amir is overpaid? I don't at all. For the first big off the bench averaging the 25-30 mpg, I have no problem with that salary. And there's no way I see him as an end of the rotation guy. I see him as a first big off the bench on a Championship team. Take a look at some of the Championship teams and look to see who their first big off the bench was and tell me that Amir is not better than most of them.

[Brandon]

I think Amir's defensive rebounding is about average. And I think his post defense will only gets better as he gets stronger. Remember the guy is only 23. And while I don't think Amir's help defense is great, I'd definitely say it's above average.

Do you think Amir is overpaid? I don't at all. For the first big off the bench averaging the 25-30 mpg, I have no problem with that salary. And there's no way I see him as an end of the rotation guy. I see him as a first big off the bench on a Championship team. Take a look at some of the Championship teams and look to see who their first big off the bench was and tell me that Amir is not better than most of them.

Maybe he's better than some of them, maybe not, but it's totally irrelevant because the Raptors will not be a championship team without at least a couple of star players, and his own salary hurts the process of bringing in those types of players. The methods the Heat used were to clear the books of players like Johnson and to bring in two star players to play with their franchise player. It's pointless to pay such money for a bench player like that until he's complementing a competitive starting lineup.

[Tim W.]

Maybe he's better than some of them, maybe not, but it's totally irrelevant because the Raptors will not be a championship team without at least a couple of star players, and his own salary hurts the process of bringing in those types of players. The methods the Heat used were to clear the books of players like Johnson and to bring in two star players to play with their franchise player. It's pointless to pay such money for a bench player like that until he's complementing a competitive starting lineup.

I agree that the Raptors need star players more than anything, but the Raptors are not going to get them the same way the Heat did. They aren't a preferred destination. They have to draft them. And Amir's salary certainly isn't going to prevent them from doing that. It's basically the MLE, so I don't see how it's really all that much of a problem.

[planetmars]

I don't think Amir's contract is the problem. I think he is a very good player (best on the team last year), but I don't think he's worth keeping if he can help improve the team. I think Amir and his contract would make really good trade chips to help get an all-star talent. Toronto at this point in time, due to their history more than anything, will not be able to attract a free agent. But they can still improve by using Amir in a trade to get someone better (eg, Gay, Westbrook, Howard (dreaming) etc).

The problem though is that Amir plays the same position that Bargnani wants to play. And that is where the Raptors have the biggest problem. The PF position, once Bosh left, has become as much of a sore point than our PG controversies in the past. If the Raptors traded Amir before Bargnani (assuming Bargnani ends up being what most people expect him to be), then that sets a really bad precedent. However if Bargnani was already traded, and an opportunity came by where they could trade Amir to get someone better - say a chance to get the #1 pick over all next year, then I would do it in a heartbeat.

[Brandon]

I agree that the Raptors need star players more than anything, but the Raptors are not going to get them the same way the Heat did. They aren't a preferred destination. They have to draft them. And Amir's salary certainly isn't going to prevent them from doing that. It's basically the MLE, so I don't see how it's really all that much of a problem.

Sure they could sign them. Miami was the only team with enough cap space to sign Bosh, Wade, and James. This nonsense about NBA players not liking Toronto is b.s. If anything, they don't like the amateurish organization. And neither do I.

[planetmars]

Sure they could sign them. Miami was the only team with enough cap space to sign Bosh, Wade, and James. This nonsense about NBA players not liking Toronto is b.s. If anything, they don't like the amateurish organization. And neither do I.

I'm not a big follower of baseball, but when the Blue Jays were winning championships in the early 90's weren't they able to attract the top free agents? And baseball fans correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Blue Jays offered enough money (and years), they would have been able to acquire Fielder who I think was one of the top FA's of this year's class.

The Raptors should have no problem attracting free agents and top talent. The problem is that their history speaks volumes. Once the team starts winning and actually gets to play games on US national television, I think they will get some attention. 2015 here we come!