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Thread: What's Your Opinion of DeRozan's First 3 Games? (Chisholm: Debunking DD myth post 46)

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    you guys are too hard on him after 4 games!! at 22 he has so much more to grow, basketball iq and confidence comes from experience. I for one see his improved 3pt shooting as a clear sign that the guy knows how to improve and will. as a shooting guard it was important for him to be a 3pt threat and Im sure BC brought that message across. Now during the season he will improve slowly his decision making, and handles (still his weakest part). Unlike most other nba players he improves when he says he will improve, and I don't see him giving that up, he's got the drive to be great, he's 22, and he's got a great opportunity in Toronto. Let him grow and make mistakes without folding on him immediately.. (a draft pick? really?)
    Top 7 draft pick, in a stacked draft homie.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    DeRozan is easily an all star by next year, Defense is all he needs to improve.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote e2thed wrote: View Post
    Top 7 draft pick, in a stacked draft homie.
    No draft pick is a sure thing! Demar producing 16+ ppg is, with the potential for all-star numbers sooner rather than later.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    DeRozan is easily an all star by next year, Defense is all he needs to improve.
    So which of Wade, Rose, Allen, Rondo, and Joe Johnson do you expect DeRozan to supplant next year in the Eastern Conference backcourt?

    Allen seems to be the most likely candidate based on his age, but don't forget that Deron Williams now plays in the East. And guys like Wall, Holiday, George, Jennings, and Walker are just as likely to become all-stars in the near future.

    An all-star selection for DeRozan is anything but a sure thing.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    He finally had a nice game last night, but my god his defense. He really needs to step it up.
    @jerboat

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I see no evidence of improvement. He's still a fungible player who probably shouldn't be starting.
    Well, I'm convinced.

    But since we're judging a guy based on a handful of games, let's look at the numbers through the handful of games. Let's see: PER is 3 points better than last year (17.2 vs. 14.4). TS% is .565 vs .530. EFG% is .565 vs. .530. AST% is 3 points higher. His FT/Game Rate is right where it was last year despite all the complaints. So, he's a more efficient scorer, a better playmaker and he's found a 3-pt shot. His DRTG is also 7 points better.

    But again, I defer to the opinion of someone who can watch 4 or 5 games and tell me a player hasn't improved at all, since I'm pretty sure that would make you the greates talent evaluator in the history of sports.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    So which of Wade, Rose, Allen, Rondo, and Joe Johnson do you expect DeRozan to supplant next year in the Eastern Conference backcourt?

    Allen seems to be the most likely candidate based on his age, but don't forget that Deron Williams now plays in the East. And guys like Wall, Holiday, George, Jennings, and Walker are just as likely to become all-stars in the near future.

    An all-star selection for DeRozan is anything but a sure thing.
    Joe johnson and Allen shouldn't be all stars anymore. Allen cause he's too old and Johnson cause he is just not an All star calibre player anymore. He's regressing, he averaged 18.2PPG, 4RBPG and 5 APG last season those are not all star numbers.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Well, I'm convinced.

    But since we're judging a guy based on a handful of games, let's look at the numbers through the handful of games. Let's see: PER is 3 points better than last year (17.2 vs. 14.4). TS% is .565 vs .530. EFG% is .565 vs. .530. AST% is 3 points higher. His FT/Game Rate is right where it was last year despite all the complaints. So, he's a more efficient scorer, a better playmaker and he's found a 3-pt shot. His DRTG is also 7 points better.

    But again, I defer to the opinion of someone who can watch 4 or 5 games and tell me a player hasn't improved at all, since I'm pretty sure that would make you the greates talent evaluator in the history of sports.
    I've been concerned about demar's play so far this year. It looked like he hadn't made as much strides as I was hoping. Especially in the defensive end. It's nice to see some stats that refute that opinion, however, I would probably point out that the boost in DRtg has more to do with other people improving their defence than demar. I think that any betterment in his defence is is negligible.

    That said, these stats have convinced me to hold off on any "trade Demar" proclamations for now. Thanks for the stats!
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Joe johnson and Allen shouldn't be all stars anymore. Allen cause he's too old and Johnson cause he is just not an All star calibre player anymore. He's regressing, he averaged 18.2PPG, 4RBPG and 5 APG last season those are not all star numbers.
    I can't see demar having much better numbers than 18, 4 and 5

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I could see him average about 20 ppg but 5 assists made me giggle
    @jerboat

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I've been concerned about demar's play so far this year. It looked like he hadn't made as much strides as I was hoping. Especially in the defensive end. It's nice to see some stats that refute that opinion, however, I would probably point out that the boost in DRtg has more to do with other people improving their defence than demar. I think that any betterment in his defence is is negligible.

    That said, these stats have convinced me to hold off on any "trade Demar" proclamations for now. Thanks for the stats!
    Well, look, the stats are all skewed because the sample size is too small. But that's kinda my point. It's premature to judge anyone based on 5 games. It's especially ridiculous when a team has a brand new coaching staff, a completely different system, and a player is in his third year with little around him. People who are eyeballing a guy and making these kinds of proclamations 5 games in have no idea what they are talking about. Now, he might flop this year or show no improvement over 66 games, but that makes these people lucky, not wise.

    Derozan was a completely different player Year 1 to Year 2. I have no idea if we'll see the sort of second half surge from last year but he does have a history of that sort of development going back to his USC days. I think part of the issue is that there are people in Raptorland who believed or hoped he is the next Kobe Bryant. So, they see anything less as an abject failure. IF Derozan can continue to be efficient offensively while improving his AST% and his defense, there is no reason he can't be a solid starter on a good team who, once in a while, can score 15 in a quarter. He isn't going to be a superstar. There's nothing wroing with that.

  12. #32
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Well, look, the stats are all skewed because the sample size is too small. But that's kinda my point. It's premature to judge anyone based on 5 games. It's especially ridiculous when a team has a brand new coaching staff, a completely different system, and a player is in his third year with little around him. People who are eyeballing a guy and making these kinds of proclamations 5 games in have no idea what they are talking about. Now, he might flop this year or show no improvement over 66 games, but that makes these people lucky, not wise.

    Derozan was a completely different player Year 1 to Year 2. I have no idea if we'll see the sort of second half surge from last year but he does have a history of that sort of development going back to his USC days. I think part of the issue is that there are people in Raptorland who believed or hoped he is the next Kobe Bryant. So, they see anything less as an abject failure. IF Derozan can continue to be efficient offensively while improving his AST% and his defense, there is no reason he can't be a solid starter on a good team who, once in a while, can score 15 in a quarter. He isn't going to be a superstar. There's nothing wroing with that.
    I was going to make a very similar post.

    DeRozan is by all accounts a hard working guy who has shown considerable improvements throughout his first two seasons in the NBA, so assuming that he's suddenly plateaued after five games of his third season is a pretty big stretch especially when you factor all the variables (new coach, new system, etc.) in as well.

    His ceiling is more Caron Butler than Kobe Bryant, but that doesn't mean we need to give up on him or explore trading him, and certainly not now while he's still very much in the development phase. What would we expect to get back for him exactly? We aren't getting a top five pick in the 2012 draft for him unless there's a team out there that is convinced he's going to be a superstar (unlikely) and trading him for a veteran player doesn't fit with the rebuild philosophy.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    I made this post on an ESPN board and it's important to keep perspective on the kid. At 19 all he could do was slash and dunk. He worked his ass off in the off-season and developed a solid mid-range game and FT shooting. At 21 he worked his ass off and developed his 3 point shooting. So, there is a solid trend of the kid working hard and improving his game.

    However, his b-ball IQ is still pretty low and he's still very much a student of the game. He's still fairly lost on the defensive end and hasn't found his place in the offense, yet.

    I expect him to have his best year statistically for rebounds, assists and steals this year, but he's still 2-3 years away before he can be considered an elite SG. His work ethic is certainly pushing him in the right direction.

    Edit: The dude is only 21 its way too soon to talk about his ceiling, there hasn't really been any regression or plateau'ing of his game, since he came into the league.

    Bargs, is only now turning into the player we hoped for when we drafted him and he's 26.
    Last edited by Raptorsss; Tue Jan 3rd, 2012 at 04:07 PM.
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  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    I can't see demar having much better numbers than 18, 4 and 5
    lol he averaged 17, 4 and 2 last season. He can easily average better numbers than those guaranteed, he puts up 20 points effortlessly he'll only improve over the course of this season.

  15. #35
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    I made this post on an ESPN board and it's important to keep perspective on the kid. At 19 all he could do was slash and dunk. He worked his ass off in the off-season and developed a solid mid-range game and FT shooting. At 21 he worked his ass off and developed his 3 point shooting. So, there is a solid trend of the kid working hard and improving his game.

    However, his b-ball IQ is still pretty low and he's still very much a student of the game. He's still fairly lost on the defensive end and hasn't found his place in the offense, yet.

    I expect him to have his best year statistically for rebounds, assists and steals this year, but he's still 2-3 years away before he can be considered an elite SG. His work ethic is certainly pushing him in the right direction.

    Edit: The dude is only 21 its way too soon to talk about his ceiling, there hasn't really been any regression or plateau'ing of his game, since he came into the league.

    Bargs, is only now turning into the player we hoped for when we drafted him and he's 26.
    He is 22 but everything else is very true.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    His shot has improved and he clearly exhibits that confidence. I can't beleive that a guy whom works as hard as he does can't improve in any part of his game which is currently lacking (defense, handles, etc...) because he has the physical gifts to do so. Where he is lacking the most is the creativity to do something with the ball to create for himself or others which is essential for a SG. You see what happens when teams double Jose to get the ball out of his hands. The offense goes stagnant. This is when a SG needs to be able to step in and do more for his team than bring the ball up the court.

    As much as I like him I think the Rap's need to look at either moving him to small forward or possibly trade him. A starting line up has to have atleast 2 players whom can handle the rock and create for themself as well as others, and the two obvioius spots to get that from are PG & SG.

  17. #37
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    His shot has improved and he clearly exhibits that confidence. I can't beleive that a guy whom works as hard as he does can't improve in any part of his game which is currently lacking (defense, handles, etc...) because he has the physical gifts to do so. Where he is lacking the most is the creativity to do something with the ball to create for himself or others which is essential for a SG. You see what happens when teams double Jose to get the ball out of his hands. The offense goes stagnant. This is when a SG needs to be able to step in and do more for his team than bring the ball up the court.

    As much as I like him I think the Rap's need to look at either moving him to small forward or possibly trade him. A starting line up has to have atleast 2 players whom can handle the rock and create for themself as well as others, and the two obvioius spots to get that from are PG & SG.
    What about SF? How about a player like Rudy Gay or Quincy Miller?

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    Default DeMar DeRozan Becoming a Focal Point

    Starting his third season with the Raptors after being drafted ninth overall in 2009, 22-year-old shooting guard DeMar DeRozan is being asked to grow up fast and become one of the focal points in Toronto.

    “The team will definitely go off how Andrea and I are playing,” DeRozan told HOOPSWORLD. “We have to take that responsibility and take on that challenge every night.”

    Last year DeRozan started in all 82 games and doubled his rookie scoring average with 17.2 points per game, finishing second behind Andrea Bargnani. This year, the team’s one-two offensive punch continues to be Bargnani and DeRozan, but a lot more is being expected from both of them than just scoring.

    “Look at it like a challenge,” continued DeRozan. “You’ve got to be up for the challenge and be willing to take whatever consequences that comes with it and be accountable for everything you do. I think that’s part of being a pro and at the same time just understanding your role, and once you understand, I think it becomes much easier.

    “I’m getting more and more comfortable after every game, after every practice.”

    In his first two seasons, DeRozan struggled on defense and couldn’t find his three-point shot. These deficiencies offset some of the benefits of his rapidly developing mid-range and slashing game, but things appear to be quickly changing this year. New Head coach Dwane Casey established an early emphasis on discipline and defense, and the team acquired some savvy veterans to help the process.

    “I think that’s beneficial for us, especially with young players, to have a coach like that,” said DeRozan. “It’s definitely been paying off. I think everybody’s buying into everything he’s pushing, on the defensive end especially.

    “We’ve got a lot of new guys, a lot more veteran experience, a couple of older guys that have definitely helped us younger guys progress a little bit faster, especially with a new defense, new offense and a new coaching staff.

    “If we have to learn something in two weeks, we’re going to have to learn it because we understood with the lockout we might not play a whole season, so whatever happens we have to be prepared for it, I think everybody was.”

    Already DeRozan has shown confidence in his formerly missing three-point shot, and after just five games, he has been hitting from range at a 62.5 percent clip and has as many threes as in all of last season. Steals, rebounds, and assists continue to run at last year’s pace and DeRozan looks more comfortable on the defensive end of the floor.

    “Understand that every night may not be your night, but I can still contribute on the defensive end. There’s always a way you can contribute.”

    Part of becoming a focal point is developing a belief in your own success and that of your team, and DeRozan knows what success is for himself and the Raptors.

    “I just want to be successful, to become a better player, a better pro, a better person overall and at the same time help my team win and represent this organization the best that I can.

    “Our team can definitely be good. I think we’ve got a great chance. We’re all still gelling together and learning a lot of new things and I think it’s nothing but up for us, and that’s where we’re going because we’re definitely working hard every day, even in practice or if it’s a shoot around to become a better team. I think we’re going to be alright.”

    For DeRozan, this optimism has a source and it has been a common theme since the end of last season. Coach Casey has everyone from the locker room to the front office believing things are about to get a lot better for the Raptors.

    “Because he definitely wouldn’t tell us anything wrong,” exclaimed DeRozan. “He knows what it takes to win. He won a championship, played with a great veteran team and is sharing all that experience with us. It can’t do anything but pay off.”

    DeRozan still has a lot of room to develop, but the Raptors investment in starting him 147 times over the past two seasons and his own strong personal work ethic have prepared him for the role of becoming a focal point under Coach Casey’s guidance. By the time this season is over, DeRozan will have taken another huge step towards fulfilling the role envisioned for him when he was drafted by the Raptors.
    Source : Hoopsworld

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What about SF? How about a player like Rudy Gay or Quincy Miller?
    Would like to see Demar given a shot at SF first since we've invested a few years in him already. He is a top 10 pick after all and you can't give up on those too quickly. He'd be giving up a fair bit of size against the likes of Melo, Lebron and Pierce, but so do the rest of SF's in the league.

    Rudy Gay is a talent, but would he be a good addition to Casey's team first concept? I haven't seen much of Q. Miller, but he seems to have great range in his jump shot and better handles than Demar already. I'd gravitate to the idea of of turning DD into a draft pick versus Gay.

  20. #40
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Would like to see Demar given a shot at SF first since we've invested a few years in him already. He is a top 10 pick after all and you can't give up on those too quickly. He'd be giving up a fair bit of size against the likes of Melo, Lebron and Pierce, but so do the rest of SF's in the league.

    Rudy Gay is a talent, but would he be a good addition to Casey's team first concept? I haven't seen much of Q. Miller, but he seems to have great range in his jump shot and better handles than Demar already. I'd gravitate to the idea of of turning DD into a draft pick versus Gay.
    Rudy Gay and Quincy Miller are, in my opinion, the type of player you referred to as being able to create their own shot of which you felt teams needed at least 2 of.

    I would not want DeMar playing at the SF unless it was a favourable matchup. Looking around the league most SF's are 6'7/6'8 and 225-240 - there are exceptions but that appears to be the norm.

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