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Thread: Why so much love for Butler and Magloire?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Default Why so much love for Butler and Magloire?

    Butler in Chicago, was the Raptor equivalent of Marcus Banks in terms of value. And Magloire the equivalent of Patrick O'Bryant, in Miami. Look, they're fine as cheap one year veteran rentals, but they aren't good players. And have no place on a competitive team..

    Thoughts?
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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    They're valuable to this team this year. That's all that matters. No sense talking about whether they belong on a championship team because they are on a team that has a need for their services. As long as those teams exist (ie Raptors), veteran role players will always have a job. To be honest, i'm ok with that.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    They're valuable to this team this year. That's all that matters. No sense talking about whether they belong on a championship team because they are on a team that has a need for their services. As long as those teams exist (ie Raptors), veteran role players will always have a job. To be honest, i'm ok with that.
    Agreed. The love for these guys are aligned with their expectations. Low-minute, defense-first veterans who don't force the issue, know their roles, and provide good leadership to a relatively inexperienced core. They're perfect in that regard. The love isn't a result of their statlines.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    It helps both are in their best shape in recent years
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    Butler in Chicago, was the Raptor equivalent of Marcus Banks in terms of value. And Magloire the equivalent of Patrick O'Bryant, in Miami. Look, they're fine as cheap one year veteran rentals, but they aren't good players. And have no place on a competitive team..

    Thoughts?
    throwing some veterans on the floor to complement the youth that we have on this team, adds poise in crunch time. Butler is a solid defender and can extend the floor which we need badly. Magloire is a big body that can bang.

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    It's like, if someone throws a baseball really hard right at your junk, but it just hits you in the thigh. You feel relieved and happy, even though getting hit by a baseball in the thigh still kind of sucks.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    They're valuable to this team this year. That's all that matters. No sense talking about whether they belong on a championship team because they are on a team that has a need for their services. As long as those teams exist (ie Raptors), veteran role players will always have a job. To be honest, i'm ok with that.
    As i said, they are fine as one year veteran rentals, but the fact that they have a significant role with the Raptors shows how weak this team is. Butler is at best a 3rd string small forward (he split-back up duties with the rookie Aminu, behind Ryan Gomes (yikes!) in LAC, and barely saw the floor in chicago and was behind kyle korver on the depth chart, which is the equivalent of playing behind jason kapono.

    Basically, I figured going into the season that the idea was for JJ to play 3/4 of the minutes and Butler to share minutes with Forbes as the back-up 3.

    Also, Magloire shouldn't be playing, really. The centre spot was to be Amir/Gray with Bargs and Davis getting the odd chance to guard opposing 5's. It's great that Casey likes playing his veterans on a young team, but I want to see Forbes and Alabi get minutes, even at the cost of winning games.

    To me Forbes is in an unoffical battle with Weems for the back-up 2 next year and we need to see if Alabi can be our 3rd string centre next year. If Casey doesn't think they can play in the NBA, BC should cut them and find equivalent players who Casey can use, since its important that this team have both a young centre and a 2-3 guard who can be a part of this team next year.

    This year, Casey seems more focused on winning than evaluating the talent. When winning this year is secondary to building a team for next year, where we feel we'll begin to have a competitive team we can build from.


    This is what our team should look like next year.

    1.Calderon,Bayless,Carter (or equivalent veteran)
    2.Derozan, (Weems or Forbes, or someone else), and our new draft pick.
    3. JJ, draft pick, Kleiza (with each getting around 10 minutes per game)
    4. Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza
    5. Amir, Val, (one of Alabi, Gray, another young centre).

    Magloire as your token Torontonian in a suit.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    As i said, they are fine as one year veteran rentals, but the fact that they have a significant role with the Raptors shows how weak this team is. Butler is at best a 3rd string small forward (he split-back up duties with the rookie Aminu, behind Ryan Gomes (yikes!) in LAC, and barely saw the floor in chicago and was behind kyle korver on the depth chart, which is the equivalent of playing behind jason kapono.
    If they're fine as one year veteran rentals then what is the problem? That's the role they are playing. No one is proclaiming them as long term solutions in Toronto. They've played relatively well so far given their roles and are our best options for the time being. It's true that quality teams likely wouldn't have Magloire/Butler in their rotation but we're not a quality team yet so what's your beef?

    Basically, I figured going into the season that the idea was for JJ to play 3/4 of the minutes and Butler to share minutes with Forbes as the back-up 3.

    Also, Magloire shouldn't be playing, really. The centre spot was to be Amir/Gray with Bargs and Davis getting the odd chance to guard opposing 5's. It's great that Casey likes playing his veterans on a young team, but I want to see Forbes and Alabi get minutes, even at the cost of winning games.

    To me Forbes is in an unoffical battle with Weems for the back-up 2 next year and we need to see if Alabi can be our 3rd string centre next year. If Casey doesn't think they can play in the NBA, BC should cut them and find equivalent players who Casey can use, since its important that this team have both a young centre and a 2-3 guard who can be a part of this team next year.

    This year, Casey seems more focused on winning than evaluating the talent. When winning this year is secondary to building a team for next year, where we feel we'll begin to have a competitive team we can build from.


    This is what our team should look like next year.

    1.Calderon,Bayless,Carter (or equivalent veteran)
    2.Derozan, (Weems or Forbes, or someone else), and our new draft pick.
    3. JJ, draft pick, Kleiza (with each getting around 10 minutes per game)
    4. Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza
    5. Amir, Val, (one of Alabi, Gray, another young centre).

    Magloire as your token Torontonian in a suit.
    You can't be mad at Casey for putting his most effective players on the floor and trying to win as many games as possible. He's waited a long time for another shot at being a head coach and he's going to do the best job he possibly can. Plus how do you think his message of a culture overhaul in Toronto would be received if he was blindly playing Alabi over Magloire just because he was younger? Players aren't stupid, and if you lose their respect with situations like that then the culture change can be derailed pretty quickly seeing as how Casey has been preaching "accountability" since day one.

    You can expect Gray to get minutes when (or if) he gets cleared to play again, and Alabi will see the floor when he is capable of being out there, which very well may never happen. I think people need to start realizing that Alabi may be a lost cause, but that's a post for another day.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    As i said, they are fine as one year veteran rentals, but the fact that they have a significant role with the Raptors shows how weak this team is. Butler is at best a 3rd string small forward (he split-back up duties with the rookie Aminu, behind Ryan Gomes (yikes!) in LAC, and barely saw the floor in chicago and was behind kyle korver on the depth chart, which is the equivalent of playing behind jason kapono.

    Basically, I figured going into the season that the idea was for JJ to play 3/4 of the minutes and Butler to share minutes with Forbes as the back-up 3.

    Also, Magloire shouldn't be playing, really. The centre spot was to be Amir/Gray with Bargs and Davis getting the odd chance to guard opposing 5's. It's great that Casey likes playing his veterans on a young team, but I want to see Forbes and Alabi get minutes, even at the cost of winning games.

    To me Forbes is in an unoffical battle with Weems for the back-up 2 next year and we need to see if Alabi can be our 3rd string centre next year. If Casey doesn't think they can play in the NBA, BC should cut them and find equivalent players who Casey can use, since its important that this team have both a young centre and a 2-3 guard who can be a part of this team next year.

    This year, Casey seems more focused on winning than evaluating the talent. When winning this year is secondary to building a team for next year, where we feel we'll begin to have a competitive team we can build from.


    This is what our team should look like next year.

    1.Calderon,Bayless,Carter (or equivalent veteran)
    2.Derozan, (Weems or Forbes, or someone else), and our new draft pick.
    3. JJ, draft pick, Kleiza (with each getting around 10 minutes per game)
    4. Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza
    5. Amir, Val, (one of Alabi, Gray, another young centre).

    Magloire as your token Torontonian in a suit.
    You make some good points, but I suppose there's a fine line between completely stinking while evaluating talent, and changing the culture. It's difficult to keep players motivated for their hard work on the defensive end if they have nothing but losses to show for it. Perhaps that's why Casey has been trying to win games, while also playing the young players (who he believes will be key contributors in the future) heavy minutes. Maybe Forbes and Alabi aren't part of that plan.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Trying to win this year is not really a bad thing. With a deep draft we could still end up getting a very good player from the draft. We can get good minutes and increase the evaluation of our fringe players like Barbossa, JJ, Bayless. We can assess if the likes of Calderon/Bargnani/Demar/Davis are movable assets for a proven franchise player. If players like Davis , JJ , Demar and Bayless improve it helps the team better than getting a top 3 draft pick.

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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    Butler in Chicago, was the Raptor equivalent of Marcus Banks in terms of value. And Magloire the equivalent of Patrick O'Bryant, in Miami. Look, they're fine as cheap one year veteran rentals, but they aren't good players. And have no place on a competitive team..

    Thoughts?
    I think that the signings must be examined past the stats. They are key signings in an otherwise critical learning period for the Raps. Butler and Casey have a history and Rasual understands his defensive schemes. As for Magloire, I understand he was never the same player but he's the one that Riley kept pulling back in his team. Yes, the same hard ass, no-nonsense coach / GM that Shaq described in his book as the second coming of Satan. He clearly had value in that team (from a defensive standpoint). Their value to this team are the intangibles - they remind people of what needs to be done in practice and on the court.

    I confess that I preferred to have Reggie Williams (from Golden State) be the free agent signing to be at the 3 for us at the start of the season. I haven't heard from Wiliams since he signed with the Bobcats.
    ďThe saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.Ē - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Nilanka I think you get where i am going and to the previous poster as well. Magloire averaged 8.8 minutes in 13 games on a finals team, where he was behind (as much as hate to bash a fellow canadian) the worst starting centre in the league and another veteran without a job. Hopefully, if and when Aaron Gray returns I can forget about Jamaal having the worst efficiency rating among eastern conference centres, battling the illustrious DeSagna Diop for last place.

    And Butler, although he didn't start for the LAC, he played about the same number of minutes 19 minutes compared to 18, and shooting a brutal percentage at both spots. I think the hope is that JJ > Gomes, Forbes > Aminu. therefore, Butler should be Butler and shoot a .300 field goal percentage for 8-10 minutes a game instead of close to 20.

    He averaged only 5 minutes in 6 games for Chicago, (shooting a whopping .574 3-point percentage). But then again Deng>JJ, korver>Forbes etc...If we want to get up to the same level as Chicago we need to draft a SF who is better than Deng, kleiza would need to return to form and if so would be miles better than Korver and JJ needs to outplay Butler this year if he is going to be a part of this team going forward.

    So, if Forbes and Alabi can't earn the minutes over the veterans than its BC's perogative this year to find replacement players whi can. And JJ needs to out play Butler, I think he can beat Butler's .313 shooting percentage, he's not that bad.
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    Nilanka I think you get where i am going and to the previous poster as well. Magloire averaged 8.8 minutes in 13 games on a finals team, where he was behind (as much as hate to bash a fellow canadian) the worst starting centre in the league and another veteran without a job. Hopefully, if and when Aaron Gray returns I can forget about Jamaal having the worst efficiency rating among eastern conference centres, battling the illustrious DeSagna Diop for last place.

    And Butler, although he didn't start for the LAC, he played about the same number of minutes 19 minutes compared to 18, and shooting a brutal percentage at both spots. I think the hope is that JJ > Gomes, Forbes > Aminu. therefore, Butler should be Butler and shoot a .300 field goal percentage for 8-10 minutes a game instead of close to 20.

    He averaged only 5 minutes in 6 games for Chicago, (shooting a whopping .574 3-point percentage). But then again Deng>JJ, korver>Forbes etc...If we want to get up to the same level as Chicago we need to draft a SF who is better than Deng, kleiza would need to return to form and if so would be miles better than Korver and JJ needs to outplay Butler this year if he is going to be a part of this team going forward.

    So, if Forbes and Alabi can't earn the minutes over the veterans than its BC's perogative this year to find replacement players whi can. And JJ needs to out play Butler, I think he can beat Butler's .313 shooting percentage, he's not that bad.
    I think it's safe to say that you really dislike Mags and Butler, which is cool. But Alabi, Forbes and JJ needs to find themselves out of the bench at critical times to outplay those two. I love JJ's energy but he makes me nervous on offence. It's the same nerves I felt when Reggie Evans thought that he was the second incarnation of Wilt Chamberlain.
    ďThe saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.Ē - Martin Luther King

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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    They're valuable to this team this year. That's all that matters. No sense talking about whether they belong on a championship team because they are on a team that has a need for their services. As long as those teams exist (ie Raptors), veteran role players will always have a job. To be honest, i'm ok with that.
    My thoughts exactly. This is rebuilding and at least they are not taking too much time from the young players. New post please!

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I think it's safe to say that you really dislike Mags and Butler, which is cool. But Alabi, Forbes and JJ needs to find themselves out of the bench at critical times to outplay those two. I love JJ's energy but he makes me nervous on offence. It's the same nerves I felt when Reggie Evans thought that he was the second incarnation of Wilt Chamberlain.
    I think you're getting the idea, I don't hate Butler and Magloire, just like I didn't hate Marcus Banks or Jake Voskhul when they were here. And the problem has more to do with the young players not being able to outplay these veterans than the veterans themselves.

    Right now, Butler is averaging 19 minutes a game and JJ 20. By the end of the season I hope to see JJ averaging 25 and Butler 10, with either Kleiza/Forbes/another young player to play the difference.

    Jamaal is averaging 14 minutes a game and I hope by the end of the season he'll be averaging 10, but be a DNP 75% of the games.
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Agreed. The love for these guys are aligned with their expectations. Low-minute, defense-first veterans who don't force the issue, know their roles, and provide good leadership to a relatively inexperienced core. They're perfect in that regard. The love isn't a result of their statlines.
    100% agree. They are only meant to help change the culture and instill the hard working, defensive work ethic in the young core players.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    As i said, they are fine as one year veteran rentals, but the fact that they have a significant role with the Raptors shows how weak this team is. Butler is at best a 3rd string small forward (he split-back up duties with the rookie Aminu, behind Ryan Gomes (yikes!) in LAC, and barely saw the floor in chicago and was behind kyle korver on the depth chart, which is the equivalent of playing behind jason kapono.

    Basically, I figured going into the season that the idea was for JJ to play 3/4 of the minutes and Butler to share minutes with Forbes as the back-up 3.

    Also, Magloire shouldn't be playing, really. The centre spot was to be Amir/Gray with Bargs and Davis getting the odd chance to guard opposing 5's. It's great that Casey likes playing his veterans on a young team, but I want to see Forbes and Alabi get minutes, even at the cost of winning games.

    To me Forbes is in an unoffical battle with Weems for the back-up 2 next year and we need to see if Alabi can be our 3rd string centre next year. If Casey doesn't think they can play in the NBA, BC should cut them and find equivalent players who Casey can use, since its important that this team have both a young centre and a 2-3 guard who can be a part of this team next year.

    This year, Casey seems more focused on winning than evaluating the talent. When winning this year is secondary to building a team for next year, where we feel we'll begin to have a competitive team we can build from.


    This is what our team should look like next year.

    1.Calderon,Bayless,Carter (or equivalent veteran)
    2.Derozan, (Weems or Forbes, or someone else), and our new draft pick.
    3. JJ, draft pick, Kleiza (with each getting around 10 minutes per game)
    4. Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza
    5. Amir, Val, (one of Alabi, Gray, another young centre).

    Magloire as your token Torontonian in a suit.
    I too thought we'd see a bit more of Forbes and Alabi, at the very least to see if they are worth keeping beyond this year (Forbes likely will be because he signed a multi-year deal). I don't necessarily agree with the team you'd like to see next year, because I sincerely hope Bayless will NOT be part of it... but that's for another thread! lol
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jan 4th, 2012 at 01:11 PM.

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    My thoughts exactly. This is rebuilding and at least they are not taking too much time from the young players. New post please!
    *sigh* the whole point of the thread is that they are taking time from younger players and you don't rebuild with veterans, you bring in veterans to mentor the younger players.

    Look, the Raptors brought in three veterans this year: Carter, Butler and Magloire. Carter who very well might be, certainly offensively, the best of the three doesn't get to play very much since there are two clear cut, younger players who are better than him. What he provides is experience, stability, mentoring for a young Bayless and insurance when one of the other two point-guards go down.

    Due to injuries, Kleiza and Gray respectively, Butler and Magloire are playing 10 minutes a game which is fine, except they are playing an extra 9 and 4 minutes that if earned, should go to JJ (5 additional) and Forbes (4 minutes) and 4 minutes to Alabi. So, if JJ and the others can't earn those extra minutes then this young rebuilding team has some holes that need fixing, Butler and Magloire certainly haven't earned those extra minutes, because they both have been brutal on offense.
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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    It's tough to agree with you Raptorsss. Like we said all last season, there was no accountability, which was leading to a sense of entitlement with our young players. Look. If ED and JJ want more minutes, they have to beat out the competition and earn it. Then they'll have to fight to keep it. I think this is a good thing.

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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    *sigh* the whole point of the thread is that they are taking time from younger players and you don't rebuild with veterans, you bring in veterans to mentor the younger players.

    Look, the Raptors brought in three veterans this year: Carter, Butler and Magloire. Carter who very well might be, certainly offensively, the best of the three doesn't get to play very much since there are two clear cut, younger players who are better than him. What he provides is experience, stability, mentoring for a young Bayless and insurance when one of the other two point-guards go down.

    Due to injuries, Kleiza and Gray respectively, Butler and Magloire are playing 10 minutes a game which is fine, except they are playing an extra 9 and 4 minutes that if earned, should go to JJ (5 additional) and Forbes (4 minutes) and 4 minutes to Alabi. So, if JJ and the others can't earn those extra minutes then this young rebuilding team has some holes that need fixing, Butler and Magloire certainly haven't earned those extra minutes, because they both have been brutal on offense.
    I think they have "earned" those minutes from Casey's perspective, because they are playing the game the way he is demanding it be played. It appears to me that JJ has lost some minutes because he's been benched a few times, after making completely boneheaded plays. I believe this is all part of the learning/mentoring process, whereby the young player get punished if they don't do what Casey wants them to, by watching less skilled, older veterans take their minutes, who are mentoring by example how the game should be played. If JJ (or any other young player you're referring to) where meeting Casey's expectations, I think you'd see them getting their full natural allotment of minutes - and the hope is that by learning from the veterans, they will earn back those minutes they are losing at the moment.

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