View Poll Results: Which would you rather in the 2011-12 season?

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  • make the playoffs

    18 37.50%
  • high lottery pick

    30 62.50%
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Thread: Who brought the downer to the party?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter RPT23's Avatar
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    I absolutely agree. Call it what you want, "culture change", "building", we need to start playing with pride (which we have been as of late). Whether that equates to making the playoffs or not, 'no expectations' is what I've been hearing a lot in post game interviews from the players. If we do tank (which is crap, IMO) it just takes away from what Casey is trying to instill on this team. Professionalism, Accountability and Dedication to the team. I don't remember a time during the Raptors era where we had a coach who actually cared for the development of this team. I don't consider the early-Wilkens era to be as significant because he practically inherited a team with a bonafide superstar in VC. Whereas right now, Casey is turning around a team which is pretty close to the same team we had last year and we have a ROCK! And by tanking, it surely doesn't ensure us of any guaranteed placement when the ball drops (last year we were projected to 'earn' a top 3 pick). Anyway, we can likely trade our assets for a higher pick if needed. For example, weren't the Spurs dangling Tony Parker for OUR 5th pick? Thank GOD BC decided to keep our pick. I feel we enough young players to develop, especially with JV set to make his Raptors debut. By showcasing this year that we're an up-and-coming team, it's a possibility that we can land a pretty good FA and/or make the perception of Toronto (or Canada for that matter), not a bad place to be. Who was that US college player that sort of refute the idea of playing for the Raptors because he didn't like travelling through customs? Perry Jones?????
    #Raptor4Life, #Prepping4thePlayoffs

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    This year isn't the year to make the playoffs (unless they really win, which I cannot envision despite the improved play). We need a high pick this year and next year will be the year to push forward.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    Wow, 12-60 the rest of the way?? That sounds pretty tough to swallow now that they've been playing so well early on...
    That would be 12-48 the rest of the way.

    But I agree with your point. We'll win more than 15 games this year.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    These are the kinds of polls that just kill me. High lottery pick or make the playoffs? Why can't we have both? So lets say we make the playoffs. First assumption there cemented. We'd clearly be a 7-8 seed at best, so our pick would still be in the mid-high teens. It is supposedly a really deep draft. There is a real possibility someone BC is targeting could be available there. Lets say he wants someone higher. We clearly don't need to keep Ed, Amir, Bargs and JV on the roster. Assuming Ed is the most enticing trade chip, we could send him and our pick, or Bayless and our pick, or some random deal with any number of teams. My point is, things are not set in stone, and winning does not necessarily screw your chances to rebuild. I hate to drink the Colangelo koolaid but he keeps using the word flexibility, and he may have enough of it to make the deals he needs to make, or at least some of them, regardless of how the season plays out with Ws and Ls.
    I think if we make the playoffs, which I think is still pretty unlikely, we should still be able to fill or start filling the holes in our roster through draft/trades. So yeah, don't be upset because thing a) or b) happens, be upset if BC can't make the moves he needs to even if we don't finish in the worst 5 teams.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    These are the kinds of polls that just kill me. High lottery pick or make the playoffs? Why can't we have both? So lets say we make the playoffs. First assumption there cemented. We'd clearly be a 7-8 seed at best, so our pick would still be in the mid-high teens. It is supposedly a really deep draft. There is a real possibility someone BC is targeting could be available there. Lets say he wants someone higher. We clearly don't need to keep Ed, Amir, Bargs and JV on the roster. Assuming Ed is the most enticing trade chip, we could send him and our pick, or Bayless and our pick, or some random deal with any number of teams. My point is, things are not set in stone, and winning does not necessarily screw your chances to rebuild. I hate to drink the Colangelo koolaid but he keeps using the word flexibility, and he may have enough of it to make the deals he needs to make, or at least some of them, regardless of how the season plays out with Ws and Ls.
    I think if we make the playoffs, which I think is still pretty unlikely, we should still be able to fill or start filling the holes in our roster through draft/trades. So yeah, don't be upset because thing a) or b) happens, be upset if BC can't make the moves he needs to even if we don't finish in the worst 5 teams.
    These types of polls are used to create discussion. It seems to be a common theme among Raptors fans of late who have had their heart set on a high draft pick.

    If you read through the comments you would see many of the issues you discussed have been mentioned.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    if the raptors are crap enough for a high draft pick, the crying about the players is going to be unparalleled.. there's a reason the bargnani thread is as ridiculously long as it is..

    the same people who are hoping for a futile season and a high draft pick are the same people who will be crying for bargs/derozan/jose's head impaled on a stick when they're a losing team towards the end of the season.

    i'd rather have mediocre fringe playoff team at best that at least tries to win games than a lost season and a bunch of whiny little tossers flooding the board with their anti-whoever threads when those same players gave them exactly what they wanted

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Rookie SandmanFan's Avatar
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    We should trade all our players for picks and draft a whole new team becase every player in the draft is better than what we have now

    Newer is better

  8. #48
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    This is about the time when Tim would be saying that "If we make the playoffs this year, we are sentencing ourselves to "years of mediocrity". Or something along those lines anyway.
    Which I don't entirely disagree with.

    I've been the one arguing in favour of showing these youngs guys that Toronto is serious about winning, and we aren't just throwing years of their careers away to get draft picks.
    As I said in the Second post on this thread, Making the Playoffs would be amazing for these guys and I'd welcome the new experience for them.

    However, I do also maintain that VERY few teams have been turned around by someone who was drafted 10-15.
    Even fewer have been turned around by someone who was picked 16-20.

    We need as much High End talent as possible and making the Playoffs will only delay that, when a once-in-a-lifetime draft is begging us to take advantage of it.
    In Masai we Trust.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    Personally, I just want to see Coach Casey's overall coaching record improve, he deserves it.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote e2thed wrote: View Post
    Personally, I just want to see Coach Casey's overall coaching record improve, he deserves it.
    agreed... considering he barely had a training camp and preseason, the improvement on the defensive end is mind boggling...

    or triano was a scrub

    one of the two..

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    I think i'd rather continue adding talent through the draft. I love the organic growth that has happened the last 3 years, and would love to see that continue. But if we make the playoffs i'm ok with that too (it would be an affirmation of the process IMO). A part of me wants to let this group get some playoff experience, play in some big games, and then get hungry for getting to the next level. Let the new kids coming in feed off of that and let our current roster turn into the mentors for the next group. Either way, te culture is changing and i'm excited to see where it will take us.

    On another note, if we do make the playoffs this season, don't look for Colangelo to change his team philosophy and start over paying washed up veterans. After all it would be that philosophy that got us there. Sustained growth is the key, and he knows it. His job depends on it.
    This is my worry as well. But the better part of me thinks Colangelo is 100% committed to the rebuild. And to a team like this current Raptors team, a playoff run is comparable to the finals. These guys havent been to the playoffs in 4 years. Demar has never been to the playoffs. Imagine what it will do to their psyche if they reach the playoffs?? Imagine how crazy it will be in Toronto, with all the major sports teams not reaching the post-season in the past couple of years?? I think it will instill in them that "Hey, we're actually good enough to get to the playoffs". I bet you Demar and Andrea will work doubly hard next season just to get that feeling again.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    agreed... considering he barely had a training camp and preseason, the improvement on the defensive end is mind boggling...

    or triano was a scrub

    one of the two..
    hahahaha

    i think Triano was a good coach, the problem was, he was BCs puppet coz he had no rep to back him up in the NBA.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    if the raptors are crap enough for a high draft pick, the crying about the players is going to be unparalleled.. there's a reason the bargnani thread is as ridiculously long as it is..

    the same people who are hoping for a futile season and a high draft pick are the same people who will be crying for bargs/derozan/jose's head impaled on a stick when they're a losing team towards the end of the season.

    i'd rather have mediocre fringe playoff team at best that at least tries to win games than a lost season and a bunch of whiny little tossers flooding the board with their anti-whoever threads when those same players gave them exactly what they wanted
    hahahahha welcome back Heinz!

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    That would be 12-48 the rest of the way.

    But I agree with your point. We'll win more than 15 games this year.
    Wow, super brainfart on my math skills there! Lol
    I'm sticking with my original 19 wins for now but I may have to change my mind by February.
    Then again after tonights Nets game I believe 10 of the next 14(Nilanka, right?) are on the road which may make or break the playoff chances.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    These are the kinds of polls that just kill me. High lottery pick or make the playoffs? Why can't we have both? So lets say we make the playoffs. First assumption there cemented. We'd clearly be a 7-8 seed at best, so our pick would still be in the mid-high teens. It is supposedly a really deep draft. There is a real possibility someone BC is targeting could be available there. Lets say he wants someone higher. We clearly don't need to keep Ed, Amir, Bargs and JV on the roster. Assuming Ed is the most enticing trade chip, we could send him and our pick, or Bayless and our pick, or some random deal with any number of teams. My point is, things are not set in stone, and winning does not necessarily screw your chances to rebuild. I hate to drink the Colangelo koolaid but he keeps using the word flexibility, and he may have enough of it to make the deals he needs to make, or at least some of them, regardless of how the season plays out with Ws and Ls.
    I think if we make the playoffs, which I think is still pretty unlikely, we should still be able to fill or start filling the holes in our roster through draft/trades. So yeah, don't be upset because thing a) or b) happens, be upset if BC can't make the moves he needs to even if we don't finish in the worst 5 teams.
    I don't think the 17th pick (just a guess as to what where the Raptors would be choosing if they make the playoffs) + Ed Davis is going to move you into the top 5 of this draft unless Davis turns it on right now and has a big season. It might move you into the top 10 but I'm pretty sure the it will take a lot to pry teams with picks 1 through 5 out of their positions considering some of the talent that will be there.

    I've been beyond impressed with the team so far - our record could even be 4-2 if they different pee on the rug in Orlando - but I have to remind myself that it's still very early. The real test will be when they're creeping up on the 40 game mark and how they are playing then. It's relatively quite easy to play well for a stretch of games compared to a full season, and Casey's job will get tougher as he will try to keep an overall young and inexperienced team focused as the season moves along.

    Looking at it completely rationally, the high lottery pick would be a much better option. They still need to add a franchise type of guy if they really want to be true challengers in the East. The Raptors are not beating the Heat or Bulls over the next five years if their best player is Bargnani, even if he does keep up this pace. I don't have a lot of faith in the "they'll find that player in free agency!" camp either, so picking the top five is giving you the best shot at finding that guy.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I voted high draft pick. The team is overachieving but needs more talent if they're going to be a contender for years to come.
    @jerboat

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I don't think the 17th pick (just a guess as to what where the Raptors would be choosing if they make the playoffs) + Ed Davis is going to move you into the top 5 of this draft unless Davis turns it on right now and has a big season. It might move you into the top 10 but I'm pretty sure the it will take a lot to pry teams with picks 1 through 5 out of their positions considering some of the talent that will be there.

    I've been beyond impressed with the team so far - our record could even be 4-2 if they different pee on the rug in Orlando - but I have to remind myself that it's still very early. The real test will be when they're creeping up on the 40 game mark and how they are playing then. It's relatively quite easy to play well for a stretch of games compared to a full season, and Casey's job will get tougher as he will try to keep an overall young and inexperienced team focused as the season moves along.

    Looking at it completely rationally, the high lottery pick would be a much better option. They still need to add a franchise type of guy if they really want to be true challengers in the East. The Raptors are not beating the Heat or Bulls over the next five years if their best player is Bargnani, even if he does keep up this pace. I don't have a lot of faith in the "they'll find that player in free agency!" camp either, so picking the top five is giving you the best shot at finding that guy.
    I would think the pick to be 15, but whatever.

    I agree it wouldn't do top 5 but it might do 6-10. If Bargnani is for real (and that is still a big if in my books) then there is no need for a top 5 pick. Of the highest ranked players, all but one are PF's or C's (Drummond, Davis, Sullinger, Perry Jones, Robinson, with Barnes being only wing). 6-10 could fetch you possibly Barnes or MKG, Quincy Miller*, Terrence Ross, or Jeremy Lamb.


    *I am still high on Quincy Miller. If you look at the 5 games before Perry Jones III returned, he had incredible stats.... and he is a freshman! There was no struggle for him adjusting to the next level while returning from knee injury. Since PJ3 has come back, Quincy has been a 2nd option. He has shown the ability to create for himself, for others, shoot from deep, and rebound. I have not seen enough Baylor games to make a comment on his defense. The only concern I have about him is that knee.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Rookie Vincent's Avatar
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    I vote for playoffs if possible as long as BC does not make a short term trade that would hurt the team in the long run. We need respect in this league and a perception that we are on the right path to entice free agent players is important. You can see in the short time Casey has been with the team the respect that he gets from other coaches & players, and from our players. Playing hard on both ends of the court must continue but Casey must walk a fine line in terms of minutes and production. I really like his approach with Bargnani telling him he is the man and raising the bar for him as an overall team player. I have really seen a change with emotion from Bargnani and I hope his confidence continues. He is playing with fire and with focus. I think Bargnani realizes that this year is crucial for him. He has a new coach and he needs to improve mentally and be consistant or his time as a Raptor would contimue to be a disappointing footnote in history.

    The first year a team makes the playoffs as we did against New York ( way back when) gives the players a taste of how different the atmosphere and games are. It would do wonders for the growth of the players and the team to make it. That being said if they fall short, the experieince of playing meaningful games late in the season is also a positive experieince. I always liked Bosh but losing him has enabled BC to properly manage instead of trying to find a short term fix, to make Bosh happy.

    Stay the course, play hard, gain respect and the draft will take care of itself.

  19. #59
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    Yo I keep saying this: LOOK AT THE PACERS!. They sucked for a while around 500 usually finishing 9th in the east, but look at their history:

    Pick 15 Kawhi Leonard - Turned into George Hill
    Pick 10 Paul George
    Pick 13 Tyler Hansborough
    Pick 17 Danny Granger
    Pick 17 Roy Hibbert

    Now they got a lotta good youngens and signed David West. Contender? Not quite. But close.

    Dont forget! We still got JV coming. There's your high pick!
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    This is about the time when Tim would be saying that "If we make the playoffs this year, we are sentencing ourselves to "years of mediocrity". Or something along those lines anyway.
    Which I don't entirely disagree with.

    I've been the one arguing in favour of showing these youngs guys that Toronto is serious about winning, and we aren't just throwing years of their careers away to get draft picks.
    As I said in the Second post on this thread, Making the Playoffs would be amazing for these guys and I'd welcome the new experience for them.

    However, I do also maintain that VERY few teams have been turned around by someone who was drafted 10-15.
    Even fewer have been turned around by someone who was picked 16-20.

    We need as much High End talent as possible and making the Playoffs will only delay that, when a once-in-a-lifetime draft is begging us to take advantage of it.
    I definitely agree that this team is in need of high level/end talent, but IMO, it doesnt necessarily have to come from the draft. I certainly understand that a high pick can net you a potential franchise player, but even if this team does not make the playoffs this year, the best they can probably do is a 6th pick, or anywhere between 6 and 10. I guess my inclination is a bit clouded by my incomplete knowledge of the 2012 draft class, but still, id rather sign or trade for a high level talent than pin my hopes on the draft.

    If this team makes the playoffs, it will bring more attention to this team and the city of Toronto, which hopefully, will also get the attention of big name players. With BCs cap space and a winning team, i really dont know how an A-level player can turn down a max offer.

    My concern with potentially drafting a franchise player is well, potential. And for that player to develop into a franchise player, 2-3 seasons would probably be a conservative estimate. And by that time, Demar is at the end of his contract, Bargnani and Amir will have one year left and so the rebuilding begins again.

    The Thunder (since most people are thinking of patterning the Raps to this team) pretty much got the luck of the draw, IMO. Even when they drafted Durant, it took him 3 years to get to the playoffs, and having been lucky enough to draft, IMO, a potential franchise player in Russell Westbrook (which i would like the Raps to get as FA next season) surely helped. And again got lucky enough to draft Harden. Sure they reached the western conference finals (which i think was a fluke coz if Melo was still in Denver and Gay was healthy with Memphis.....) but now that Westbrook is going to become a free agent and Harden next season, whats going to prevent them from walking away to get bigger money and to a team where they'll be the superstar? Can Durant, as the franchise player, take this team to the Finals? I highly doubt it.

    Im not saying they should go on win mode now, but rather on a win sooner than later mode.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 03:26 PM.

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