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Thread: DeMar Struggling With Accountability?

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Default DeMar Struggling With Accountability?

    Great read from Tim Chisholm. Tim discusses how after been pretty much being fed with a silver spoon since arriving in the NBA, that Casey's arrival has certainly changed the culture of this club (as we've all seen) and one of the player that's still in shock as Tim put it, remains DeMar.

    During his first two years with the Toronto Raptors, DeMar DeRozan was basically handed the world on a platter. He was an opening night starter as a 20-year-old rookie, and my midway through his second season he was the teamís go-to scorer and he became a nightly 20 ppg threat. Going into this, his third season, it looked like everything was about to coming together for the athletic swingman.

    Then Dwane Casey arrived.

    Casey is not the type hand out anything. Casey came in with a mandate to change the culture of a soft, pitiless basketball club, and we went to work immediately rewriting the offense and the defense to his standards and expectations. That has resulted in a bit of a shock for DeRozan.
    Source - Click here

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jon_Wade's Avatar
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    Good read, heres hoping that he ends up coming around to become a more complete player and with Casey as a coach it is a lot more likely.
    Whoever told you skies the limit is looking dumb because I'm 22 and i'm moonwalking on the sun.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Right now DeRozan is eleven games into his third NBA season. Heís 22 years old. The team is being hard with him because heís still young enough to develop into a tremendous NBA player, but he needs to put in far more rigorous work into his whole game to get there. If heís not interested in becoming a tremendous NBA player you can bet that the Raptors arenít interested in keeping him around longterm. That is part of the culture change, too. Players that arenít willing to push themselves and their abilities as hard as the organization expects them to will not last very long in the organization.
    Best line in the article.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    demar has all the physical ability and skill.... but he lacks the mindset to take it to the next level

    he can be a gym rat all he wants... but that's not the problem..

    he's just not an alpha male.. he lacks the "i'm better than everyone in the room" mentality that makes the legendary players who they are..

    maybe he needs to spend some time in the d-league, just so he can get a taste of "of all the shit on the basketball court, my shit smells the prettiest"

    or maybe he should start hanging around Malton.. just so he genuinely learns the "every single person around here is beneath me" mentality.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    DeRozan for Mayo straight up. They're both USC alum, so nobody will now the difference!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jon_Wade's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    DeRozan for Mayo straight up. They're both USC alum, so nobody will now the difference!
    I was just looking up to see how he was size wise and hes listed at 6'5, I always thought he was undersized for shooting guard but if that listing is true (draft express) then hes average height and has a 41 inch max vert which is even higher than derozans plus among the things listed as strengths I saw Basketball IQ, Confidence, Coachable and Work ethic. I'm not ready to give up on Demar yet but I wouldn't be too disappointed if OJ Mayo was what we got if management felt we needed to trade him. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/O.J.-Mayo-238/
    Whoever told you skies the limit is looking dumb because I'm 22 and i'm moonwalking on the sun.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I am with this article to a certian extent. Obviously, Derozan is being asked to do a lot more things than he was asked to do in his first two years and he's having difficulty making the requisite adjustments. It's also clear that the expanded role they are asking him to play has exposed his limitations (and he has more than a few). Where I don't buy in is this whole idea that Derozan is "struggling with accountability". To me, it's more a case of the team asking Derozan to do things he can't do, so he's not doing them. Cause he can't.

    There's something else that bothers me about what is starting to happen to Derozan. Every year this team under Colangelo has some scapegoat. In 2007-08 it was Ford and Bargnani, in 2008-09 it was O'Neal and Bargs, then it was Bosh. Now, it seems like Derozan is being loaded up with all the sins of the organization so he can be cast aside and everyone else can walk away with clean hands. Enough with this. Derozan was always a limited player. Colangelo sold him as Air Canada 2 and the supplicant Toronto press bit hook, line and sinker. The fans wanted to believe in a new saviour. Derozan was never, ever going to be a franchise player. Ever. How about casting some of the blame for Derozan's lack of development on the guy with the high collar who hired the last coach? Who created and oversaw the "no accountability" system he now refers to with disdain (if I was Triano I would have punched Colangelo in the face by now)? Who continues to wave the wand and yell "Abracadabra" everytime he brings some new retread into town? It's simply amazing to me that everyone in Toronto is praising this new-fangled system and Casey's "new professionalism" without asking the obvious question: why the hell wasn't it like this before?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Jon_Wade wrote: View Post
    I was just looking up to see how he was size wise and hes listed at 6'5, I always thought he was undersized for shooting guard but if that listing is true (draft express) then hes average height and has a 41 inch max vert which is even higher than derozans plus among the things listed as strengths I saw Basketball IQ, Confidence, Coachable and Work ethic. I'm not ready to give up on Demar yet but I wouldn't be too disappointed if OJ Mayo was what we got if management felt we needed to trade him. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/O.J.-Mayo-238/
    I've always been high on Mayo. He was a third overall pick, and his rookie numbers definitely showed that talent. But I honestly think he's being under-used in Memphis, with so many established weapons ahead of him in the pecking order (Randolph, Gay, Gasol). Mayo would be a great fit beside Bargnani in our offense. A prototypical shooting guard who's quick, can create his own shot, can knock down the 3 ball, and can bring the ball up court when/if needed.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I am with this article to a certian extent. Obviously, Derozan is being asked to do a lot more things than he was asked to do in his first two years and he's having difficulty making the requisite adjustments. It's also clear that the expanded role they are asking him to play has exposed his limitations (and he has more than a few). Where I don't buy in is this whole idea that Derozan is "struggling with accountability". To me, it's more a case of the team asking Derozan to do things he can't do, so he's not doing them. Cause he can't.

    There's something else that bothers me about what is starting to happen to Derozan. Every year this team under Colangelo has some scapegoat. In 2007-08 it was Ford and Bargnani, in 2008-09 it was O'Neal and Bargs, then it was Bosh. Now, it seems like Derozan is being loaded up with all the sins of the organization so he can be cast aside and everyone else can walk away with clean hands. Enough with this. Derozan was always a limited player. Colangelo sold him as Air Canada 2 and the supplicant Toronto press bit hook, line and sinker. The fans wanted to believe in a new saviour. Derozan was never, ever going to be a franchise player. Ever. How about casting some of the blame for Derozan's lack of development on the guy with the high collar who hired the last coach? Who created and oversaw the "no accountability" system he now refers to with disdain (if I was Triano I would have punched Colangelo in the face by now)? Who continues to wave the wand and yell "Abracadabra" everytime he brings some new retread into town? It's simply amazing to me that everyone in Toronto is praising this new-fangled system and Casey's "new professionalism" without asking the obvious question: why the hell wasn't it like this before?
    Most coaches have been first time hires. Kevin O'Neill, Sam Mitchell, Jay Triano, Butch Carter, Darrell Walker were all first time coaches. Lenny Wilkens had to be checked daily for a pulse after 64 years prior coaching experience.

    Dwane Casey is hungry. He realizes due to his time in Minnesota that nothing is guaranteed, even when you overachieve as a coach. He has waited a long time to get another opportunity and he might not get another. Plus he has previous head coaching experience and has been a part of 1 NBA championship coaching staff and another that made a trip to the finals.

    If DeRozan can't do what he is being asked to do, he needs to be traded. Luckily I think he can, he just needs time to adjust.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    I know someone had brought up this in another thread, not sure who and I'm swamped at work right now to check, but NBAdraft.net's weakness of DeRozan were

    Despite all of his physical attributes, is often satisfied to 'go with the flow'. Does not look to dominate ... His on court presence leaves much to be desired at this stage of his development .. He plays hard, but rarely full throttle ... Passion to be a superstar has always been questioned ..
    Needs to become more consistent overall. Does not always play up to his abilities. Must gain experience and develop more of a killer instinct. He's competitive, but can go through the motions when he's not on his game. Has superstar potential, but must continue to work hard and not buy into his own hype to get there. His ability to set up teammates and passing game could show some improvement. Must learn to play with more intensity defensively
    Draftexpress had this to say about him :

    As a ball-handler is where DeRozan needs to improve the most, as he really struggles to take advantage of his superior athleticism, having all kinds of problems creating his own shot. He can't really change directions with the ball or beat his man with an advanced move, and is thus entirely reliant on others to create offense for him, which is a bit of a problem for a team without a true point guard. That's one of the reasons he's getting to the free throw line just over three times a game, which is somewhat underwhelming considering the physical advantages he enjoys over his opponents.
    http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1jMS5Bdu8

    I think Demar has this season to impress the brass or else he'll be out the door. The weaknesses listed are the same problems he's having 3 years later.

    I remember before the season started, trading Demar and I got raked over the coals for even suggesting it. He's a solid player, but for the skill-set he possesses, he should be so much more of a player, and that's what concerns me.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Fri Jan 13th, 2012 at 12:47 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Dwane Casey is hungry. He realizes due to his time in Minnesota that nothing is guaranteed, even when you overachieve as a coach. He has waited a long time to get another opportunity and he might not get another. Plus he has previous head coaching experience and has been a part of 1 NBA championship coaching staff and another that made a trip to the finals.

    If DeRozan can't do what he is being asked to do, he needs to be traded. Luckily I think he can, he just needs time to adjust.
    I would argue Casey is doing what he is doing cause he has the mandate from management to do so. Something I don't think Mitchell or Triano ever had from Colangelo. EDIT: The question then is: why now? Why wasn't the culture shift started 5 years ago?

    On Derozan, we'll see. As I've written before I am not making any judgment on DD after a dozen games but, at the same time, I don't think we're going to see the kind of transformation in his game many are expecting (hoping for?). Maybe he ain't the guy long term at the SG but what I'm weary of is putting this franchise's failures on a different guy every year before he's run out of town wearing goat horns.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Paradigm Shift's Avatar
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    I was thinking about starting a post about the "culture shift" noting the surprising early returns. Unfortunately, I have been too busy, working late and getting home with less energy than the Raptors have recently shown on the court (couldn't help myself).

    I was going to raise the obvious question who would have predicted that with a new tougher culture, last year's two favourite soft PiŮatas, AB & JC, have become the favourite children of RR and that last year's "only real pieces to move forward with" DD and ED would be struggling so.

    The question that I want to raise for discussion, which I see has begun to emerge here, is can Casey last? Will the team, the fan base and ownership stick behind Casey if the result of his system continues to be the disenfranchisement of the players that were touted as the future and core of the re-build?

    I, personally, hope the answer to that question is yes, but I fear if DD and ED continue to struggle (and I don't know what the time line for that would have to be), it may be the coach who become the odd man out.
    Last edited by Paradigm Shift; Fri Jan 13th, 2012 at 01:38 PM.

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    One other comment should be made. For as much as Chisholm makes of the "accountability" argument, the facts don't really bear it out.

    Derozan's USG% is actually up over last year. His minutes played are about the same. His rebounding, assist and steal numbers are all about the same. The two areas where he has struggled are: FG% and Turnovers. Derozan's FG% is off almost 60 points from last year and his TS% is off 30 points. Query: if Derozan was knocking down shots, are we even having this conversation? As for turnovers, he turns it over at the same rate as Calderon and less than Bayless and Barbosa. His DRTG is no worse than Rasul Butler (who Chisholm tells us in there for his defense) and the same as Bargs (who is apparently playing stupendous defense this year).

    Now, stats don't tell the whole story and there is no dispute that Derozan hasn't exactly impressed. But I think far too much is being made of the first 11 games. Again, IMO, this all has more to do with Colangelo's establishment of completely unrealistic expectations for Derozan, and the fans and the media buy in to those ridiculous expectations, than anything else.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    One other comment should be made. For as much as Chisholm makes of the "accountability" argument, the facts don't really bear it out.

    Derozan's USG% is actually up over last year. His minutes played are about the same. His rebounding, assist and steal numbers are all about the same. The two areas where he has struggled are: FG% and Turnovers. Derozan's FG% is off almost 60 points from last year and his TS% is off 30 points. Query: if Derozan was knocking down shots, are we even having this conversation? As for turnovers, he turns it over at the same rate as Calderon and less than Bayless and Barbosa. His DRTG is no worse than Rasul Butler (who Chisholm tells us in there for his defense) and the same as Bargs (who is apparently playing stupendous defense this year).

    Now, stats don't tell the whole story and there is no dispute that Derozan hasn't exactly impressed. But I think far too much is being made of the first 11 games. Again, IMO, this all has more to do with Colangelo's establishment of completely unrealistic expectations for Derozan, and the fans and the media buy in to those ridiculous expectations, than anything else.
    I agree with your last paragraph, although I don't see how Colangelo set those expectations. In my recollection, the only indication of Demar as anything other than a very promising rookie has been the Young Guns thing, and not only was that started by the players themselves (and only after it showed gains was it co-opted by the franchise), it was just a marketing campaign. I don't remember hearing anything about Demar being the next Vince Carter coming from management. It was media and fans who pumped up his expectations, along with a couple decent showings in the dunk contest, etc.

    I do agree that he's suffering now from unrealistic expectations.

    As for accountability, he was sat for the majority of a couple of 4th quarters. That's a pretty obvious statement for a starter and the de facto #2 guy on the roster. He's not being coddled, I don't think. He just happens to be the 2nd-most naturally gifted player on the team, and the one who HAS to pick up the slack from Bargnani and Calderon. There are simply no other options. If he's knocking down shots, of course we're not having this conversation.

    The question is -- whether he's actually talented enough or not (I believe he is) -- does he rise to the occasion with the floortime and offensive focus he's getting, or does he fall on his face? That's more proof of his mental makeup than his talent level, and is the only thing I can see that would hold him back, since he really does have some crazy athletic gifts.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I would argue Casey is doing what he is doing cause he has the mandate from management to do so. Something I don't think Mitchell or Triano ever had from Colangelo. EDIT: The question then is: why now? Why wasn't the culture shift started 5 years ago?

    On Derozan, we'll see. As I've written before I am not making any judgment on DD after a dozen games but, at the same time, I don't think we're going to see the kind of transformation in his game many are expecting (hoping for?). Maybe he ain't the guy long term at the SG but what I'm weary of is putting this franchise's failures on a different guy every year before he's run out of town wearing goat horns.
    In my opinion, Casey got the job on his own merits. I think BC had an idea of what direction he wanted to go and Casey best served it in the interview/selection process. Have they discussed and collaborated since his hiring? Absolutely. But I think it is a little insulting to Dwane Casey to strip credit away from what is going on. He is a hell of a basketball coach (that is many more people's opinion than mine) and he was the bridesmaid to many head coaching jobs before this one.

    I find it incredible that fans are finally getting what they have asked for yet that isn't good enough. It is time to (painfully) enjoy the rebuilding/building process going on in front of us and hope for the best come the draft and free agency.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I seem to recall that he described Derozan as more polished than Stoudamire (who he drafted at #9). I also recall that he didn't shy away from the Vince Carter comparisons. If you go back and find Derozan's introductory day in Raptorland you'll find the quotes. It's classic Colangelo: instead of underpromising and overdelivering, he's so eager to pat himself on the back and be validated by others that he can't help himself from saying stupid things. Triano was also falling all over himself to put him in the starting 5 before he was ever in a warmup. I remember this cause I recall that there were more than a few fans on RaptorsHQ, RealGM, etc. raising their eyebrows.

    In any case, as a Raps fan I want Derozan to succeed and hope he does. As I said above, I just get the feeling he's being set up as the next in a long line of scapegoats and it isn't right.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    One other comment should be made. For as much as Chisholm makes of the "accountability" argument, the facts don't really bear it out.

    Derozan's USG% is actually up over last year. His minutes played are about the same. His rebounding, assist and steal numbers are all about the same. The two areas where he has struggled are: FG% and Turnovers. Derozan's FG% is off almost 60 points from last year and his TS% is off 30 points. Query: if Derozan was knocking down shots, are we even having this conversation? As for turnovers, he turns it over at the same rate as Calderon and less than Bayless and Barbosa. His DRTG is no worse than Rasul Butler (who Chisholm tells us in there for his defense) and the same as Bargs (who is apparently playing stupendous defense this year).

    Now, stats don't tell the whole story and there is no dispute that Derozan hasn't exactly impressed. But I think far too much is being made of the first 11 games. Again, IMO, this all has more to do with Colangelo's establishment of completely unrealistic expectations for Derozan, and the fans and the media buy in to those ridiculous expectations, than anything else.

    I also heard Colangelo was responsible for the flood in New Zealand last year and the latest drought in Africa. Not to mention he was at fault for numerous traffic accidents and gang violence.

    I have always appreciated BC's efforts - most of which did not turn out very well. I can understand negative opinions about him in the past - even he has essentially admitted it considering he is currently doing the exact opposite of his first few years in Toronto. However, he is finally being prudent with the purse strings, developing young talent, making wise draft selections (instead of trading the pick), and developing a defensive minded roster via roster moves and coaching - he pretty much is doing what many detractors have asked of him since his arrival. But now that these things are being done, he is responsible for raising the expectations on DeRozan? I'm sorry, I call BS. If there is anyone responsible in this situation it is DeRozan - and not because he is not meeting the expectations but because he is not stepping up to the challenge. His body language, demeanour, and glares show this. It is clear the coddling, lovey-dovey approach does not work. Does anyone want to go through any Bargnani experience? I'm happy for Bargnani and the Raptors but he should have been given tough love a 2-3 seasons ago - right around the stage of DeMar's development actually.

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    Derozan's 4 facial expressions on the court: boredom or fear or cluelessness or nothing at all.

    No fire. No mean streak. No I'm going to f*ck you over and score on you. No killer instinct.

    He needs to man the f up.

    1 youtube clip of Jonas V has more heart, give a shitness and wnning attitude than Derozan's entire Raptor career.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I seem to recall that he described Derozan as more polished than Stoudamire (who he drafted at #9). I also recall that he didn't shy away from the Vince Carter comparisons. If you go back and find Derozan's introductory day in Raptorland you'll find the quotes. It's classic Colangelo: instead of underpromising and overdelivering, he's so eager to pat himself on the back and be validated by others that he can't help himself from saying stupid things. Triano was also falling all over himself to put him in the starting 5 before he was ever in a warmup. I remember this cause I recall that there were more than a few fans on RaptorsHQ, RealGM, etc. raising their eyebrows.

    In any case, as a Raps fan I want Derozan to succeed and hope he does. As I said above, I just get the feeling he's being set up as the next in a long line of scapegoats and it isn't right.
    From my recollection, DD was put in the starting line up because it was the only way to get him minutes with the starters and playing time. I recall him starting the 1st and 2nd half and then predominantly riding the pine for the rest of the game unless he was having a good game. He only averaged 21.6 minutes. As the season went along the number of 25-plus minute games went up - but only if he was having a strong game.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In my opinion, Casey got the job on his own merits. I think BC had an idea of what direction he wanted to go and Casey best served it in the interview/selection process. Have they discussed and collaborated since his hiring? Absolutely. But I think it is a little insulting to Dwane Casey to strip credit away from what is going on. He is a hell of a basketball coach (that is many more people's opinion than mine) and he was the bridesmaid to many head coaching jobs before this one.

    I find it incredible that fans are finally getting what they have asked for yet that isn't good enough. It is time to (painfully) enjoy the rebuilding/building process going on in front of us and hope for the best come the draft and free agency.
    You're missing my point entirely.

    Let me put it this way. If I hire an architect to design my new house and he designs and builds a barn instead, I'm not exactly happy. When he realizes he's built a barn and hires a new contractor to rip it down and build a house that's terrific, of course, but I have to ask why he just didn't build the freaking house in the first place. I appreciate that he's trying to fix my barn problem but I'm not going to give him credit for doing what he should have done in the first place. I think it's great the new contractor looks like he's doing a good job laying the foundation for my house but I'm still pissed that the guy in charge didn't do it right the first time and, MY GAWD, he's still in charge! Maybe he's figured it out, but maybe I should have played it safe and just got a new guy altogether.

    Now, he's designing my new house and the contractor is working hard but a lot of the parts aren't really as advertised. And there continue to be disturbing stories that, despite the new engineer's advice, my architect keeps pitching for parts of the old barn to go back up. Meanwhile, the guest wing looks a little off despite the contractor's best efforts and I'm told it's actually the bricklayer's fault or the fault of the old subcontractor who quit months ago. Nothing ever seems to be the archtitect's fault though he's the one who designed the barn and the new house.

    I've tortured the metaphor long enough.

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