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Thread: Time for the Raptors to look at Bayless in a different light?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Time for the Raptors to look at Bayless in a different light?

    Maybe I am being a little harsh and premature with my judgement but it does not look like Bayless is the future starting point guard of the Toronto Raptors. However, that does not mean he is not without use to the franchise.


    What if Bayless is the next Barbosa? You know, the black hole off the bench that provides speed and a scoring punch to the second unit. They are the same height and around the same weight. Instead of turning Bayless in to something he is not, utilize his strengths and remove the restraints. Clearly this creates a redundancy on the Raptors roster and a trade would be in order.


    What do you think?
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 11:54 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    I would agree Bayless is more suited to playing the 2 than the 1. He seems much more effective when JC is on the floor at the same time, running the show.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    We saw Bosa, Dero, Davis, and Bayless have a tough start to the season with Casey. It takes time for a player to get accustomed to a new coach, so I think he needs a bit more time with this team. I mean, Casey loves a slow pace (as we see with Jose) and I am sure that Bayless sprinting up and down the court is not what Casey wants, so Bayless is gonna have to adjust, just like the other players did.

    I think when he figures out his role, he could be a consistent contributor to this team. He really does need a Jose to control the pace.

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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    We saw Bosa, Dero, Davis, and Bayless have a tough start to the season with Casey. It takes time for a player to get accustomed to a new coach, so I think he needs a bit more time with this team. I mean, Casey loves a slow pace (as we see with Jose) and I am sure that Bayless sprinting up and down the court is not what Casey wants, so Bayless is gonna have to adjust, just like the other players did.

    I think when he figures out his role, he could be a consistent contributor to this team. He really does need a Jose to control the pace.
    I don't think Coach has a problem with the running game at all, I think he has a problem with the team favouring breaking out early on D in order to facilitate a fast break. In fact last night you could hear Casey on TV telling Barbosa and Calderon to "GO" on offense. We have had the habit of leaving the defensive end to early trying to create the fast break. With a focus on defense the players are being asked to all contribute and rebound the ball. I know that this will lead to more half court style offense, but as they improve on boxing out and defending well, I think break opportunities will open up again.

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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    ...With a focus on defense the players are being asked to all contribute and rebound the ball. I know that this will lead to more half court style offense, but as they improve on boxing out and defending well, I think break opportunities will open up again.
    Bingo

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    I don't think Coach has a problem with the running game at all, I think he has a problem with the team favouring breaking out early on D in order to facilitate a fast break. In fact last night you could hear Casey on TV telling Barbosa and Calderon to "GO" on offense. We have had the habit of leaving the defensive end to early trying to create the fast break. With a focus on defense the players are being asked to all contribute and rebound the ball. I know that this will lead to more half court style offense, but as they improve on boxing out and defending well, I think break opportunities will open up again.
    Someone made a comment about Jose taking the ball up, and he gets past half just at 17 seconds, and it is very true. In the Chicago game, Jose after chicago had made a shot on D, took the ball up very slowly. It is Casey's way of controlling the pace. He shows he has nothing against running (like you said) but more often then not, we have a slow pace up the floor. As we see with teams like Miami ( a very solid defensive team) their pace comes from exactly what you said, controlling the rebound, and throwing a deep outlet pass, but Toronto is a very different team, and even with better rebounding and defense, I do not think we will be that much faster of a team.
    Last edited by Red and White; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 05:34 PM.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Maybe I am being a little harsh and premature with my judgement but it does not look like Bayless is the future starting point guard of the Toronto Raptors. However, that does not mean he is not without use to the franchise.


    What if Bayless is the next Barbosa? You know, the black hole off the bench that provides speed and a scoring punch to the second unit. They are the same height and around the same weight. Instead of turning Bayless in to something he is not, utilize his strengths and remove the restraints. Clearly this creates a redundancy on the Raptors roster and a trade would be in order.


    What do you think?
    They need to decide if his services are worth $4.1M next year because otherwise he's a UFA. I don't think it matter if he's going to be a true starting PG or not. He has potential to be an impact player and I personally would rather see them keep him, maybe not for that above mentioned price but keep him none the less and go after a real starting PG either in the draft or via free agency.

    Calderon and Barbosa aren't long term pieces to a rebuilding project. Bayless is a lot more promising than either of those guys when we start considering two, three or even four years down the line. The Barbosa comparison might be fair Matt. He has a lot of fire power to his game.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    They need to decide if his services are worth $4.1M next year because otherwise he's a UFA.
    I don't think the Raptors need to spend $4M on a bench scoring SG just because they currently have Barbosa and he's not likely to be here next year (ie. Barbosa's is not a role you necessarily need to fill). I wouldn't pay $4M to keep Bayless here, no way. He's too small to defend the 2 (and isn't much of a defender anyway), he certainly can't run the point, and if he's going to do anything positive on the floor, he has to dominate the ball. Yep, that sounds like Barbosa. But I don't think that's the kind of 6th man this team should be looking for.

    Sorry, Jerryd, I like you, but: Do not want as a key piece.

    If he goes out on the market and doesn't get any bites, sure, bring him back at 2.5M a year for 2 years. He can come off the bench as the 8th/9th man.
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I don't think the Raptors need to spend $4M on a bench scoring SG just because they currently have Barbosa and he's not likely to be here next year (ie. Barbosa's is not a role you necessarily need to fill). I wouldn't pay $4M to keep Bayless here, no way. He's too small to defend the 2 (and isn't much of a defender anyway), he certainly can't run the point, and if he's going to do anything positive on the floor, he has to dominate the ball. Yep, that sounds like Barbosa. But I don't think that's the kind of 6th man this team should be looking for.

    Sorry, Jerryd, I like you, but: Do not want as a key piece.

    If he goes out on the market and doesn't get any bites, sure, bring him back at 2.5M a year for 2 years. He can come off the bench as the 8th/9th man.
    Ditto, and to expand a little on that: If we're talking about moving forward long term, you want more distribution of scoring from the second unit than 1 undersized ball dominating SG that isn't even very good at that. That's all he has been on 3 teams in his 3rd year. A guy like that is only good for an end of bench, short minute guy when you're second unit is stalling and needs an injection: a bit player. This year is about development and evaluation and maybe the coaching staff can turn him around, but 3 previous coaching staffs haven't changed his game one bit.

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    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    I've always thought that role would be best for him...I feel PG vision isn't something he has, he just doesn't see the floor like Jose does. As for if he is worth 4M next year, I would say yeah because Barbosa will likely be gone and the Raptors will likely have a new PG (draft of FA). So a sixth man type role could be his (and he would be able to play more PG than Barbosa). He needs to play on a wing, in open floor where he can use his speed and handle

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Ditto, and to expand a little on that: If we're talking about moving forward long term, you want more distribution of scoring from the second unit than 1 undersized ball dominating SG that isn't even very good at that. That's all he has been on 3 teams in his 3rd year. A guy like that is only good for an end of bench, short minute guy when you're second unit is stalling and needs an injection: a bit player. This year is about development and evaluation and maybe the coaching staff can turn him around, but 3 previous coaching staffs haven't changed his game one bit.

    give us some names of who you can fill the sixth man role for 4 million. 4 million qualifying offer is 3 for 12 or a 4 for 15/16 million deal which is not a bad deal for bayless in my opinion. like weems all we need to do is drop the qualifying offer down and then wait to see if someone beats it. if they do we move on but if they don't we have our sixth man. just because bayless doesn't fit the point guard position doesn't mean that he doesn't have a place on the team. we have the pieces and if you are only filling out a team by a step by step process instead of plugging any and every hole when that piece comes you could be building forever.

    bayless is a good player who seems to have been tunnel visioned or pigeon holed into only being a point guard because that is what we need/want him to be. but if he isn't a point guard we still have a good player who is something else. finding what he is instead of dropping him and starting over is the better approach.


    ***sorry i thought i could quote you and jimmy at the same time. reply was for both.

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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    give us some names of who you can fill the sixth man role for 4 million. 4 million qualifying offer is 3 for 12 or a 4 for 15/16 million deal which is not a bad deal for bayless in my opinion. like weems all we need to do is drop the qualifying offer down and then wait to see if someone beats it. if they do we move on but if they don't we have our sixth man. just because bayless doesn't fit the point guard position doesn't mean that he doesn't have a place on the team. we have the pieces and if you are only filling out a team by a step by step process instead of plugging any and every hole when that piece comes you could be building forever.

    bayless is a good player who seems to have been tunnel visioned or pigeon holed into only being a point guard because that is what we need/want him to be. but if he isn't a point guard we still have a good player who is something else. finding what he is instead of dropping him and starting over is the better approach.


    ***sorry i thought i could quote you and jimmy at the same time. reply was for both.
    You can, click the multi-quote button (to the right of the reply with quote button) on the comments you wish to reply to.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    give us some names of who you can fill the sixth man role for 4 million. 4 million qualifying offer is 3 for 12 or a 4 for 15/16 million deal which is not a bad deal for bayless in my opinion.
    How about I give you some names of guys making a lot less than $4M and would be better options? This isn't to say we should or could get one of these guys, just that there are better options for 6th, 7th man than Jerryd Bayless, and you don't have to pay through the nose for those kinds of players. CJ Watson, Keyon Dooling, Michael Pietrus, Rudy Fernandez, Nate Robinson, Dorell Wright, Goran Dragic, Courtney Lee, George Hill, James Jones, Deshawn Stevenson, Landry Fields -- and even TJ Ford...

    You don't reward a guy just for surviving his first few years in the league with a $4M deal. If you exist in the kind of "tweener" basketball netherworld that Bayless does, you need to be really, really good at one thing, which Bayless isn't. Not to mention, if you're only really, really good at one thing, you're probably not 6th-man material on a competing playoff team anyway.

    Look, he still has the rest of the year to prove that the first few years were learning-curve years and that he's worth keeping around, then you can talk salary. Right now, he needs to prove he has a future here at all, let alone as a $4M a year 6th man. I want him to succeed, because I want the Raptors to succeed, but I don't see it for him at the moment.
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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Barbosa height 6-3 wingspan 6-10
    Bayless height 6-3 wingspan 6-3.5"

    With one of the best wingspans and admirable quickness for his age, Barbossa can play as a 2 comfortably and do well offensively against bigger guards. Bayless might have got away with playing as a guard sometimes in his college days but he cannot do it in the NBA. A decent guard can easily defend against him. His best position is PG IMO and he will do well watching Calderon. He is not a pure PG however and you need a playmaker SG/SF to give you the assists when playing him.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    They need to decide if his services are worth $4.1M next year because otherwise he's a UFA. I don't think it matter if he's going to be a true starting PG or not. He has potential to be an impact player and I personally would rather see them keep him, maybe not for that above mentioned price but keep him none the less and go after a real starting PG either in the draft or via free agency.

    Calderon and Barbosa aren't long term pieces to a rebuilding project. Bayless is a lot more promising than either of those guys when we start considering two, three or even four years down the line. The Barbosa comparison might be fair Matt. He has a lot of fire power to his game.

    As for the contract situation - There is no way Barbosa is getting 9million next year if BC has learnt from his past mistakes. Trade or make space for a free agent *cough* Dwill * cough*.
    Last edited by draftedraptor; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 05:27 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    Barbosa height 6-3 wingspan 6-10
    Bayless height 6-3 wingspan 6-3.5"

    With one of the best wingspans and admirable quickness for his age, Barbossa can play as a 2 comfortably and do well offensively against bigger guards. Bayless might have got away with playing as a guard sometimes in his college days but he cannot do it in the NBA. A decent guard can easily defend against him. His best position is PG IMO and he will do well watching Calderon. He is not a pure PG however and you need a playmaker SG/SF to give you the assists when playing him.




    As for the contract situation - There is no way Barbosa is getting 9million next year if BC has learnt from his past mistakes. Trade or make space for a free agent *cough* Dwill * cough*.
    Wow... this is the first time I had read Barbo's wingspan was 6'10". That is incredible.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    i saw bayless as the next barbosa in the middle of last year. as a terry type player he is much more valuable to our team then as lead guard. but he still needs to learn how to pass the ball. right now on the second unit JJ would be the main ball handler, which i dont see as bad, but bayless is just far superior at penetration. if you start to fill out the roster as pieces to build with you

    pg-jose/with no backup
    sg-derozan/no backup
    first guard off the bench bayless
    sf- / JJ or kleiza back up (i think that kleiza will be packaged with either davis or pick)
    pf-bargs
    c-amir
    first big off the bench until he i and amir switch val

    then fill will fodder. needs a young pg to groom(been watching miami and love cole)
    i could watch this team grow into something.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Wow... this is the first time I had read Barbo's wingspan was 6'10". That is incredible.
    it was highlighted when he made that circus shot against the bulls the other day (falling to the floor, reaching around the defender and flippling the ball in...he looked like Stretch Armstrong)

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    it was highlighted when he made that circus shot against the bulls the other day (falling to the floor, reaching around the defender and flippling the ball in...he looked like Stretch Armstrong)
    I saw the game but I don't recall that. I often fast forward through foul shots or dead ball situations.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    What if Bayless is the next Barbosa? You know, the black hole off the bench that provides speed and a scoring punch to the second unit. They are the same height and around the same weight. Instead of turning Bayless in to something he is not, utilize his strengths and remove the restraints. Clearly this creates a redundancy on the Raptors roster and a trade would be in order.
    IMO the difference between Bayless and Barbosa
    Barbosa:
    -faster
    -more creative
    -great off bounce
    -sub par defender
    -sub par from distance

    Bayless:
    -better defender
    -better spot up shooter
    -More over all upside in my opinion because he is has more fundamentals NOT SAYING THAT I KNOW FOR SURE IF HE WILL REALIZE THE POTENTIAL.

    More than anything the kid needs to get healthy and log big minutes in a tank job season such as this.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    As backup SG - sure!
    As pg in any facet - no thanks
    @jerboat

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