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Thread: Time for the Raptors to look at Bayless in a different light?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Time for the Raptors to look at Bayless in a different light?

    Maybe I am being a little harsh and premature with my judgement but it does not look like Bayless is the future starting point guard of the Toronto Raptors. However, that does not mean he is not without use to the franchise.


    What if Bayless is the next Barbosa? You know, the black hole off the bench that provides speed and a scoring punch to the second unit. They are the same height and around the same weight. Instead of turning Bayless in to something he is not, utilize his strengths and remove the restraints. Clearly this creates a redundancy on the Raptors roster and a trade would be in order.


    What do you think?
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 11:54 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    I would agree Bayless is more suited to playing the 2 than the 1. He seems much more effective when JC is on the floor at the same time, running the show.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    We saw Bosa, Dero, Davis, and Bayless have a tough start to the season with Casey. It takes time for a player to get accustomed to a new coach, so I think he needs a bit more time with this team. I mean, Casey loves a slow pace (as we see with Jose) and I am sure that Bayless sprinting up and down the court is not what Casey wants, so Bayless is gonna have to adjust, just like the other players did.

    I think when he figures out his role, he could be a consistent contributor to this team. He really does need a Jose to control the pace.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Maybe I am being a little harsh and premature with my judgement but it does not look like Bayless is the future starting point guard of the Toronto Raptors. However, that does not mean he is not without use to the franchise.


    What if Bayless is the next Barbosa? You know, the black hole off the bench that provides speed and a scoring punch to the second unit. They are the same height and around the same weight. Instead of turning Bayless in to something he is not, utilize his strengths and remove the restraints. Clearly this creates a redundancy on the Raptors roster and a trade would be in order.


    What do you think?
    They need to decide if his services are worth $4.1M next year because otherwise he's a UFA. I don't think it matter if he's going to be a true starting PG or not. He has potential to be an impact player and I personally would rather see them keep him, maybe not for that above mentioned price but keep him none the less and go after a real starting PG either in the draft or via free agency.

    Calderon and Barbosa aren't long term pieces to a rebuilding project. Bayless is a lot more promising than either of those guys when we start considering two, three or even four years down the line. The Barbosa comparison might be fair Matt. He has a lot of fire power to his game.

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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    We saw Bosa, Dero, Davis, and Bayless have a tough start to the season with Casey. It takes time for a player to get accustomed to a new coach, so I think he needs a bit more time with this team. I mean, Casey loves a slow pace (as we see with Jose) and I am sure that Bayless sprinting up and down the court is not what Casey wants, so Bayless is gonna have to adjust, just like the other players did.

    I think when he figures out his role, he could be a consistent contributor to this team. He really does need a Jose to control the pace.
    I don't think Coach has a problem with the running game at all, I think he has a problem with the team favouring breaking out early on D in order to facilitate a fast break. In fact last night you could hear Casey on TV telling Barbosa and Calderon to "GO" on offense. We have had the habit of leaving the defensive end to early trying to create the fast break. With a focus on defense the players are being asked to all contribute and rebound the ball. I know that this will lead to more half court style offense, but as they improve on boxing out and defending well, I think break opportunities will open up again.

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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    ...With a focus on defense the players are being asked to all contribute and rebound the ball. I know that this will lead to more half court style offense, but as they improve on boxing out and defending well, I think break opportunities will open up again.
    Bingo

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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Barbosa height 6-3 wingspan 6-10
    Bayless height 6-3 wingspan 6-3.5"

    With one of the best wingspans and admirable quickness for his age, Barbossa can play as a 2 comfortably and do well offensively against bigger guards. Bayless might have got away with playing as a guard sometimes in his college days but he cannot do it in the NBA. A decent guard can easily defend against him. His best position is PG IMO and he will do well watching Calderon. He is not a pure PG however and you need a playmaker SG/SF to give you the assists when playing him.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    They need to decide if his services are worth $4.1M next year because otherwise he's a UFA. I don't think it matter if he's going to be a true starting PG or not. He has potential to be an impact player and I personally would rather see them keep him, maybe not for that above mentioned price but keep him none the less and go after a real starting PG either in the draft or via free agency.

    Calderon and Barbosa aren't long term pieces to a rebuilding project. Bayless is a lot more promising than either of those guys when we start considering two, three or even four years down the line. The Barbosa comparison might be fair Matt. He has a lot of fire power to his game.

    As for the contract situation - There is no way Barbosa is getting 9million next year if BC has learnt from his past mistakes. Trade or make space for a free agent *cough* Dwill * cough*.
    Last edited by draftedraptor; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 05:27 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    I don't think Coach has a problem with the running game at all, I think he has a problem with the team favouring breaking out early on D in order to facilitate a fast break. In fact last night you could hear Casey on TV telling Barbosa and Calderon to "GO" on offense. We have had the habit of leaving the defensive end to early trying to create the fast break. With a focus on defense the players are being asked to all contribute and rebound the ball. I know that this will lead to more half court style offense, but as they improve on boxing out and defending well, I think break opportunities will open up again.
    Someone made a comment about Jose taking the ball up, and he gets past half just at 17 seconds, and it is very true. In the Chicago game, Jose after chicago had made a shot on D, took the ball up very slowly. It is Casey's way of controlling the pace. He shows he has nothing against running (like you said) but more often then not, we have a slow pace up the floor. As we see with teams like Miami ( a very solid defensive team) their pace comes from exactly what you said, controlling the rebound, and throwing a deep outlet pass, but Toronto is a very different team, and even with better rebounding and defense, I do not think we will be that much faster of a team.
    Last edited by Red and White; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 05:34 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    They need to decide if his services are worth $4.1M next year because otherwise he's a UFA.
    I don't think the Raptors need to spend $4M on a bench scoring SG just because they currently have Barbosa and he's not likely to be here next year (ie. Barbosa's is not a role you necessarily need to fill). I wouldn't pay $4M to keep Bayless here, no way. He's too small to defend the 2 (and isn't much of a defender anyway), he certainly can't run the point, and if he's going to do anything positive on the floor, he has to dominate the ball. Yep, that sounds like Barbosa. But I don't think that's the kind of 6th man this team should be looking for.

    Sorry, Jerryd, I like you, but: Do not want as a key piece.

    If he goes out on the market and doesn't get any bites, sure, bring him back at 2.5M a year for 2 years. He can come off the bench as the 8th/9th man.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    Barbosa height 6-3 wingspan 6-10
    Bayless height 6-3 wingspan 6-3.5"

    With one of the best wingspans and admirable quickness for his age, Barbossa can play as a 2 comfortably and do well offensively against bigger guards. Bayless might have got away with playing as a guard sometimes in his college days but he cannot do it in the NBA. A decent guard can easily defend against him. His best position is PG IMO and he will do well watching Calderon. He is not a pure PG however and you need a playmaker SG/SF to give you the assists when playing him.




    As for the contract situation - There is no way Barbosa is getting 9million next year if BC has learnt from his past mistakes. Trade or make space for a free agent *cough* Dwill * cough*.
    Wow... this is the first time I had read Barbo's wingspan was 6'10". That is incredible.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    i saw bayless as the next barbosa in the middle of last year. as a terry type player he is much more valuable to our team then as lead guard. but he still needs to learn how to pass the ball. right now on the second unit JJ would be the main ball handler, which i dont see as bad, but bayless is just far superior at penetration. if you start to fill out the roster as pieces to build with you

    pg-jose/with no backup
    sg-derozan/no backup
    first guard off the bench bayless
    sf- / JJ or kleiza back up (i think that kleiza will be packaged with either davis or pick)
    pf-bargs
    c-amir
    first big off the bench until he i and amir switch val

    then fill will fodder. needs a young pg to groom(been watching miami and love cole)
    i could watch this team grow into something.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    What if Bayless is the next Barbosa? You know, the black hole off the bench that provides speed and a scoring punch to the second unit. They are the same height and around the same weight. Instead of turning Bayless in to something he is not, utilize his strengths and remove the restraints. Clearly this creates a redundancy on the Raptors roster and a trade would be in order.
    IMO the difference between Bayless and Barbosa
    Barbosa:
    -faster
    -more creative
    -great off bounce
    -sub par defender
    -sub par from distance

    Bayless:
    -better defender
    -better spot up shooter
    -More over all upside in my opinion because he is has more fundamentals NOT SAYING THAT I KNOW FOR SURE IF HE WILL REALIZE THE POTENTIAL.

    More than anything the kid needs to get healthy and log big minutes in a tank job season such as this.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    As backup SG - sure!
    As pg in any facet - no thanks
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    As Miekenstien mentioned, I think Colangelo/Casey see Bayless as more of a Jason Terry type player. I don't think anyone thinks he's capable of becoming a PG, but more of an offensive spark off the bench capable of hitting shots in bunches.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    The big question for me isn't whether Bayless would be effective in that role off the bench but whether or not he'd be willing to accept it. He wore out his welcome in two places already with beefs about playing time so I have my doubts on whether or not he'd be willing to get on board with a plan that would have him coming off the bench for the next few seasons and then actually stick with it. Bayless is quite adamant that he wants to be a starter in the NBA and I'm not sure he would buy into it for very long, if at all.

    One thing I am sure of is however is that Bayless is not the future of the PG spot in Toronto. He is a valuable player, ideally in the role that Matt52 described, but if he's not willing to accept that role at 24 years old then I'd suggest letting him leave and be someone's elses headache. He seems like someone that David Kahn would be willing to sign for big money.

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    I would trade BOTH Barbosa and Bayless at the trade deadline this season.

    Barbosa is 30+ veteran on an expiring contract, who could give any playoff team a scoring punch off the bench - no brainer to me.

    Bayless is Barbosa-lite, playing as a PG. Although he could be a Barbosa-type player, I can't help but get the feeling from watching him, that he's not the type of person who would accept that role. He has a chip on his shoulder and a constant scowl that make me feel like he thinks he's better than everybody else and will only be happy being "the man". At the end of the day, there's no way I would extend the $4.16M qualifying offer after the season to keep him as a backup, whether it's as a PG, SG or some sort of hybrid.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    The big question for me isn't whether Bayless would be effective in that role off the bench but whether or not he'd be willing to accept it. He wore out his welcome in two places already with beefs about playing time so I have my doubts on whether or not he'd be willing to get on board with a plan that would have him coming off the bench for the next few seasons and then actually stick with it. Bayless is quite adamant that he wants to be a starter in the NBA and I'm not sure he would buy into it for very long, if at all.

    One thing I am sure of is however is that Bayless is not the future of the PG spot in Toronto. He is a valuable player, ideally in the role that Matt52 described, but if he's not willing to accept that role at 24 years old then I'd suggest letting him leave and be someone's elses headache. He seems like someone that David Kahn would be willing to sign for big money.
    Since he arrived in Toronto, Bayless hasn't given us any indication that he has a problem coming off the bench.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    As long as we don't have a better or equal option (scorer on 2nd unit) I wouldn't mind if we extend Barbosa (depending on his salary). I don't think Bayless is anywhere close to his level and I don't think he'll ever be (I might be wrong). Also, I don't share some people's opinion that Bayless is a good defender (his statistics, synergy I believe, were really bad; can't find the article unfortunately). It's not just that, but if Amir will be coming of the bench I'd also like him to be paired with a point guard who can make him an effective offensive weapon. If Bayless stays as a 8-10th guy I would like to see us pay him less than 2 mil. a year.

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    I'd just like to see him get steady minutes to gauge what he can or can't become. Some things are obvious in that he can certainly score the ball but he needs time to develop other aspects of him game. At this point it's obvious the Raptors are on the outside looking in of the playoffs so why not let players who could be in the long term picture have some extended burn? This season hasn't been nearly enough to see his worth lets hope when he comes back he has finally shaken those ankle issues.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I don't think the Raptors need to spend $4M on a bench scoring SG just because they currently have Barbosa and he's not likely to be here next year (ie. Barbosa's is not a role you necessarily need to fill). I wouldn't pay $4M to keep Bayless here, no way. He's too small to defend the 2 (and isn't much of a defender anyway), he certainly can't run the point, and if he's going to do anything positive on the floor, he has to dominate the ball. Yep, that sounds like Barbosa. But I don't think that's the kind of 6th man this team should be looking for.

    Sorry, Jerryd, I like you, but: Do not want as a key piece.

    If he goes out on the market and doesn't get any bites, sure, bring him back at 2.5M a year for 2 years. He can come off the bench as the 8th/9th man.
    Ditto, and to expand a little on that: If we're talking about moving forward long term, you want more distribution of scoring from the second unit than 1 undersized ball dominating SG that isn't even very good at that. That's all he has been on 3 teams in his 3rd year. A guy like that is only good for an end of bench, short minute guy when you're second unit is stalling and needs an injection: a bit player. This year is about development and evaluation and maybe the coaching staff can turn him around, but 3 previous coaching staffs haven't changed his game one bit.

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