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Thread: Time for the Raptors to look at Bayless in a different light?

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Did you just compare Westbrook to Bayless?
    I think its fair game.
    The comparison has been made more than a few times on the Forum, if memory serves me.

    Both are "Scoring Guards" pulling Point Guard duties, and learning how to balance and control their competitive fire while still including the team.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 7th, 2012 at 02:47 PM.
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  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    So it's fine when player like Westbrook(who lead the league is TOs last year) thinks score first but when Bayless does it's a huge problem?
    Yeah, I was going to mention this in my first response to whoever listed Bayless with Rose, Deron and... Jeremy Lin. If you're even taking a look down that road, we don't need to discuss this any further. Elite PGs, despite whether they average over 20 or under 20 a game, also have a responsibility to manage the game and involve their teammates in ways that make it easy for them to score. Bayless has never, in his entire NBA career so far, proven able to do that. I don't know much about his college or high school careers, but from what I've heard, he was primarily a scorer there as well, and not really a playmaker or defensive stopper.

    Look, this isn't about Calderon. It's not about Bayless vs. Jose as starting PG. It's about Bayless himself. He's not a capable PG. Full stop. He can score, but that's it. He's a terrible distributor and worse game manager. To make it all worse, his defense is poor. If his shot is on, he's a 50/50 contributor. If his shot is off, he's a detriment to the team.
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  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I think its fair game.
    The comparison has been made more than a few times on the Forum, if memory serves me.

    Both are "Scoring Guards" pulling Point Guard duties, and learning how to balance and control their competitive fire while still including the team.
    I dunno, seems more like a psychological comparison, than one of their physical abilities.

    Westbrook shoots better from the field (although not from distance), gets to the FT line more, earns more assists (while turning the ball over more), and is the far better defender. It helps to have better teammates I'm sure, but still...

    For someone as unpolished as Westbrook, IMO he's miles ahead of Bayless.
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  4. #44
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I think one of Barbosa and Bayless will be back next year, but not both. I prefer Barbosa if the salaries are equal (not that it will happen).
    The Raptors can get a better player than Bayless for $4M/yr via free agency. I'm not sure why Barbosa would come back when he's not going to be able to demand more than the MLE and there will be teams lining up to offer him that and a shot at a ring.

  5. #45
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I dunno, seems more like a psychological comparison, than one of their physical abilities.
    Well, judging by Chr1s1an's post:
    So it's fine when player like Westbrook(who lead the league is TOs last year) thinks score first but when Bayless does it's a huge problem?
    , the comparison was indeed, one of Psychological mindset.
    I'm not sure he was ever truly comparing their overall abilities.


    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    For someone as unpolished as Westbrook, IMO he's miles ahead of Bayless.
    I can't disagree with this.

    However, I think some of that has to do with circumstance and where each was drafted.
    Both were very heavily compared going into the draft as well, and Bayless was (I'm pretty sure) ranked just behind Westbrook in Guards for the Class.
    Westbrook was given a situation where he had no competition for the Starting spot, and minimal competition for minutes. He was given free Reign. Bayless had to play behind Brandon Roy and Andre Miller. Both obvious Starters, and both obvious closers.
    Only now is Bayless in a situation where he can play without looking over his shoulder, and even still, his leash is MUCH tighter than that of Westbrook. Westbrook is NOT a good facilitator. He gets his assists purely based on Minutes and his High Usage Rate.

    Now I'm not saying Bayless is as good as Westbrook. Westbrook is an All-Star.
    But I think their style of play, and focus to Score first, Pass Second, are certainly on Par with eachother.

    ADD Whoa, that was longer than I anticipated ... whoopsy! haha
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  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to compare him to Westbrook. I'm just saying what's wrong with having a score first PG. Especially when his the best shot creator on are team.

    As a pure scorer Bayless is better than Westbrook. Westbrook is just a freak athlete. Bayless is a good defender, he just bails players out with fouling at the end of the possession. Which gets better with experience.

    That's beside my point. I'm just saying what wrong with having a PG with a high scoring rate but lower TO rate than Westbrook.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I'm not trying to compare him to Westbrook. I'm just saying what's wrong with having a score first PG. Especially when his the best shot creator on are team.

    As a pure scorer Bayless is better than Westbrook. Westbrook is just a freak athlete. Bayless is a good defender, he just bails players out with fouling at the end of the possession. Which gets better with experience.

    That's beside my point. I'm just saying what wrong with having a PG with a high scoring rate but lower TO rate than Westbrook.
    Did you see Bayless guarding, or attempting to guard, John Wall? It is a tough matchup but he was owned.

    What stats or observations are you using to come to the conclusion Bayless is a better pure scorer than Westbrook? I don't see it.


    As for having a high scoring PG, there is nothing wrong with it. But you need a PG, high scoring or not, that makes good decisions. Bayless does not in my opinion.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Did you see Bayless guarding, or attempting to guard, John Wall? It is a tough matchup but he was owned.

    What stats or observations are you using to come to the conclusion Bayless is a better pure scorer than Westbrook? I don't see it.


    As for having a high scoring PG, there is nothing wrong with it. But you need a PG, high scoring or not, that makes good decisions. Bayless does not in my opinion.
    I don't know about you but, who else should we have ran a play for in the closing parts of the game? He was the best option down the stretch. If Andrea was playing he wouldn't had to force the action. No one else on the court could create a shot.

    The reason why Wall dominated was cause we let him get confident against Calderon at the beginning of the game. When 4Q and OT came along he was already extremely confident, that he even started hitting jumpers.

    40 games left we need to sit Calderon down(and trade) and try the Jerryd Bayless experiment.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    And how the hell is he going to get assists if guys aren't trying to get open. Kleiza was the only one trying to contribute on offense the rest were standing there with their head up their ass's. you but Bayless on a team with guys like KD, harden and Ibaka and he'll dish out 5-8 assists easy. If demar tried moving without the ball more and trying to get open like last year Bayless would have got a couple more assists. Last year Bayless as a starter average 20 and 5 that ain't bad

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I don't know about you but, who else should we have ran a play for in the closing parts of the game? He was the best option down the stretch. If Andrea was playing he wouldn't had to force the action. No one else on the court could create a shot.

    The reason why Wall dominated was cause we let him get confident against Calderon at the beginning of the game. When 4Q and OT came along he was already extremely confident, that he even started hitting jumpers.

    40 games left we need to sit Calderon down(and trade) and try the Jerryd Bayless experiment.
    i think if andrea were on the floor bayless still would have forced things and been pulled. team needs to trade barbosa for a tpe or pick and let bayless play his role the rest of the season to see if he is worth 4 million. much like barbosa bayless needs to be given free reign when he is on the court.

    there is nothing wrong with seeing someone for what they are. i like bayless' game and hope he stays as our sixth man, which i said earlier. pointing to this game you can see what he is capable of when no one else can score.(even if klieza was insanely more efficient)

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I don't know about you but, who else should we have ran a play for in the closing parts of the game? He was the best option down the stretch. If Andrea was playing he wouldn't had to force the action. No one else on the court could create a shot.

    The reason why Wall dominated was cause we let him get confident against Calderon at the beginning of the game. When 4Q and OT came along he was already extremely confident, that he even started hitting jumpers.

    40 games left we need to sit Calderon down(and trade) and try the Jerryd Bayless experiment.
    Who else? Hmmmm.... Kleiza? And not as a last resort throwing it to him in the corner with no rhythym to get a shot off. 23 shots many of which were ill-advised, just like the quick shot with 3 minutes left versus Miami. Oh yeah, and just 3 assists playing as the PG for long stretches. From my recollection, Bayless' play does not change with Bargnani in the lineup - he still looks for his shot first and most passes come reluctantly when he has little other option.

    Blaming Calderon for Bayless' inability to stop Wall is not really an excuse in my books.

    One thing I do agree with is the desire to trade Calderon. The problem with letting Bayless play the PG is that he has shown he is not a PG. He is not a PG anymore than Barbosa is. This was the idea of the original thread - Bayless is not a PG, why are we forcing him to conform to one?
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Feb 8th, 2012 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Thanks, Maleko.

  12. #52
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Who else? Hmmmm.... Kleiza? And not as a last resort throwing it to him in the corner with no rhythym to get a shot off. 23 shots many of which were ill-advised, just like the quick shot with 3 minutes left versus Miami. Oh yeah, and just 3 assists playing as the PG for long stretches. From my recollection, Bayless' play does not change with Bargnani in the lineup - he still looks for his shot first and most passes come reluctantly when he has little other option.

    Blaming Calderon for Bayless' inability to stop Wall is not really an excuse in my books.

    One thing I do agree with is the desire to trade Calderon. The problem with letting Bayless play the PG is that he has shown he is not a PG. He is not a PG anymore than Bayless is. This was the idea of the original thread - Bayless is not a PG, why are we forcing him to conform to one?
    Think you mean Barbosa here, but I agree. I was in the other camp thinking he was turning the corner in some games last year, but the way he started the season off he clearly either never got the message that sharing is a positive trait, or has been told 'don't stop shooting' and taken it completely to heart.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Rookie Regression's Avatar
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    Against the Wizards:

    - 3 assists in 39 minutes
    - What about his defense? Nick Young/Wall took him to school.
    - All he did well was to shoot 3s (6-10, 18pts)

    He had a decent game but the hype is unwarranted. He's Mike James 2.0 with less skills.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Regression wrote: View Post
    He's Mike James 2.0 with less skills.
    Hmmm... I don't know. I think he's more like Barbosa Lite. I think Bayless is destined to be a combo guard offensive spark off the bench. Mike James had a contract year one season shooting clinic in Toronto but he functioned as a solid PG for most of his career elsewhere.

    If Bayless wants to market himself as a PG he no doubt is going about it the wrong way during his own contract year.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Hmmm... I don't know. I think he's more like Barbosa Lite. I think Bayless is destined to be a combo guard offensive spark off the bench. Mike James had a contract year one season shooting clinic in Toronto but he functioned as a solid PG for most of his career elsewhere.

    If Bayless wants to market himself as a PG he no doubt is going about it the wrong way during his own contract year.
    He has a $4.1M qualifying offer for next year. I bet he will take it.

    Yea I'm unsure about the analogy. Guess we both agree that he's not a natural PG.

  16. #56
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    You're assuming they offer it. I am assuming they don't. This free agent class is deep and they can do better with that $4M than him. For example, Steve Blake(not a FA this summer but still...) only makes $4M and he's a far better point guard.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're assuming they offer it. I am assuming they don't. This free agent class is deep and they can do better with that $4M than him. For example, Steve Blake(not a FA this summer but still...) only makes $4M and he's a far better point guard.
    And coincidentally, Blake beat out JB in Portland for the backup PG role a few years ago. Hmmm.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie big_chris's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This was the idea of the original thread - Bayless is not a PG, why are we forcing him to conform to one?
    Because a 6 foot guards who can't run a team barely have a place at all in the NBA. He needs reps as a teams lead decision maker if he is to ever improve in that area of the game.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The Raptors can get a better player than Bayless for $4M/yr via free agency. I'm not sure why Barbosa would come back when he's not going to be able to demand more than the MLE and there will be teams lining up to offer him that and a shot at a ring.
    A team can always tender an offer lower than the qualifying offer if they believe the player may accept it. The risk is the player refuses the offer and thus becomes an unrestricted free agent. Whether this is a lesser or greater risk than tendering an above market value qualifying offer and risking the player accepts it can be argued either way.

    As to Barbosa, Barbosa and Colangelo have a good relationship and I believe that could weight in the equation.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote big_chris wrote: View Post
    Because a 6 foot guards who can't run a team barely have a place at all in the NBA. He needs reps as a teams lead decision maker if he is to ever improve in that area of the game.
    He is 6'3". Same height as Eric Gordon, Ben Gordon, Barbosa. He can play combo guard providing scoring and a spark off the bench. That is the only role I see for him on Toronto moving forward.

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