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Time for the Raptors to look at Bayless in a different light?

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  • #31
    Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    if you don't qualify bayless you risk losing him for nothing.
    So far in his Raptor tenure, Bayless hasn't done enough (IMO) to worry about "losing" him. The cap space would be more valuable to me than Bayless on the roster.

    There's room for him to prove me wrong during the final 50 games of the season, but I don't think it's worth signing a guy who doesn't necessarily fit your team's direction, in the hopes of someday getting something back for him. I would much rather not re-sign him, vesus extending the qualifying offer, have no other team match, and be stuck with an untradeable player who doesn't contribute to winning basketball.

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    • #32
      Time for Jerryd Bayless to Start... At point guard

      "In the few career starts Bayless has had, he’s posted formidable numbers of 15.8 points, 4.8 assists, and and 2.7 rebounds with a mere 2.1 turnovers per game.

      It’s evident that Bayless can put the ball in the basket, and Dwane Casey himself is aware of that. However, what’s held Bayless out of the starting line-up is because of his playmaking skills, or lack of.He’s out of control at times, and fails to create offense for others. This is why Bayless has been a journeyman throughout his career, and has been considered a combo guard.

      So what’s different this time around? Bayless has shown things he’s never shown before. His lane penetration has always been fantastic, but his court vision is the huge difference here. He’s not just looking to score for himself, when he draws the defense he’s looking for the open man. This is something a Raptors point guard has failed to do since the days of TJ Ford."

      Thoughts?

      http://www.rantsports.com/courtcrusa...t-point-guard/

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      • #33
        i'm with you man. Bayless has that skill to pull defenders towards him like a magnet. When he drives defenses close in and thats when he hits an open man for a jumper. It really opens things up for Kleiza, DeMar and other players on our team who can hit the 3 or the mid range. Like sachaman said he draws the defense like how TJ ford used to do and young PG's do these days. Alot of people think bayless is a Combo because he can score which is unfair, have you guys forgotten about Russel Westbrook, D Rose, Deron Williams, Jrue Holiday, Chauncy Billups, Jeremy lin(yea i said it). I say give him a chance at PG atleast then we won't have to go with the smaller lineups.

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        • #34
          The only way I would want JB to start is if Calderon is injured or traded and the goal becomes having a worse record than Washington and Charlotte.

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          • #35
            Mentioned it in a few threads now. $4M. That's roughly what it will take to retain his UFA rights. Maybe the discussion should be centered around whether or not we see him coming back next season? I could see him included in a trade deadline package.

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            • #36
              NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
              i'm with you man. Bayless has that skill to pull defenders towards him like a magnet. When he drives defenses close in and thats when he hits an open man for a jumper. It really opens things up for Kleiza, DeMar and other players on our team who can hit the 3 or the mid range. Like sachaman said he draws the defense like how TJ ford used to do and young PG's do these days. Alot of people think bayless is a Combo because he can score which is unfair, have you guys forgotten about Russel Westbrook, D Rose, Deron Williams, Jrue Holiday, Chauncy Billups, Jeremy lin(yea i said it). I say give him a chance at PG atleast then we won't have to go with the smaller lineups.
              Explain the 3 assists last night then? Or the questionable shot choices? I won't even get into the sh*t D that both he and Demar played on Wall and Young. During OT, Bayless did exactly what people have mistakenly accused Calderon of doing: he pounded the ball until there was no time to do anything other than jack an ill-advised 3 or drive out of control into the lane and fling a pass at someone else so they could force up something at the end of the shot clock.

              Fans love scoring, I get it. And Bayless can score; that's never been questioned. But that's not winning basketball, and it's not any sort of endorsement of Bayless as a PG.
              Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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              • #37
                Thesachman wrote: View Post
                "In the few career starts Bayless has had, he’s posted formidable numbers of 15.8 points, 4.8 assists...with a mere 2.1 turnovers per game.

                ...He’s not just looking to score for himself, when he draws the defense he’s looking for the open man. This is something a Raptors point guard has failed to do since the days of TJ Ford."
                So Bayless gets worse than 5 assists for every 2 turnovers.

                And if we completely ignore the Amir/Calderon pick and roll success story and the fact that Calderon's passes from under the basket almost always find an open man with time to actually, you know, shoot the ball instead of throwing up a desperation hail Mary with .3 seconds left on the shot clock, then Bayless gets credit for being the first PG since TJ Ford for driving and kicking?

                Are you kidding me. "...his court vision is the huge difference here. He’s not just looking to score for himself, when he draws the defense he’s looking for the open man." I saw Bayless draw and kick 3 times last night, and twice it was because he ran into 3 opposing players and realized there was no way he could shoot so he simply flung the ball at a black shirt, without realizing who it was or what they could do with it.

                Whoever you are quoting, they are on drugs.

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                • #38
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Mentioned it in a few threads now. $4M. That's roughly what it will take to retain his UFA rights. Maybe the discussion should be centered around whether or not we see him coming back next season? I could see him included in a trade deadline package.
                  I think one of Barbosa and Bayless will be back next year, but not both. I prefer Barbosa if the salaries are equal (not that it will happen).

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                  • #39
                    jimmie wrote: View Post
                    Explain the 3 assists last night then? Or the questionable shot choices? I won't even get into the sh*t D that both he and Demar played on Wall and Young. During OT, Bayless did exactly what people have mistakenly accused Calderon of doing: he pounded the ball until there was no time to do anything other than jack an ill-advised 3 or drive out of control into the lane and fling a pass at someone else so they could force up something at the end of the shot clock.

                    Fans love scoring, I get it. And Bayless can score; that's never been questioned. But that's not winning basketball, and it's not any sort of endorsement of Bayless as a PG.
                    So it's fine when player like Westbrook(who lead the league is TOs last year) thinks score first but when Bayless does it's a huge problem? The only reason he couldnt stop wall in OT was cause he was already too hot feeding on Calderon all game. Honestly I like Calderon but like every team knows what his going to do. Not look at the rim and just pass the ball and take the open 3 if he gets it. Puts no pressure on the teams opposing starting pg. When the last a starting PG has been in foul trouble against us?
                    @Chr1st1anL

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                    • #40
                      Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                      So it's fine when player like Westbrook(who lead the league is TOs last year) thinks score first but when Bayless does it's a huge problem? The only reason he couldnt stop wall in OT was cause he was already too hot feeding on Calderon all game. Honestly I like Calderon but like every team knows what his going to do. Not look at the rim and just pass the ball and take the open 3 if he gets it. Puts no pressure on the teams opposing starting pg. When the last a starting PG has been in foul trouble against us?
                      Did you just compare Westbrook to Bayless?

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                      • #41
                        Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        Did you just compare Westbrook to Bayless?
                        I think its fair game.
                        The comparison has been made more than a few times on the Forum, if memory serves me.

                        Both are "Scoring Guards" pulling Point Guard duties, and learning how to balance and control their competitive fire while still including the team.
                        Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 7, 2012, 03:47 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                          So it's fine when player like Westbrook(who lead the league is TOs last year) thinks score first but when Bayless does it's a huge problem?
                          Yeah, I was going to mention this in my first response to whoever listed Bayless with Rose, Deron and... Jeremy Lin. If you're even taking a look down that road, we don't need to discuss this any further. Elite PGs, despite whether they average over 20 or under 20 a game, also have a responsibility to manage the game and involve their teammates in ways that make it easy for them to score. Bayless has never, in his entire NBA career so far, proven able to do that. I don't know much about his college or high school careers, but from what I've heard, he was primarily a scorer there as well, and not really a playmaker or defensive stopper.

                          Look, this isn't about Calderon. It's not about Bayless vs. Jose as starting PG. It's about Bayless himself. He's not a capable PG. Full stop. He can score, but that's it. He's a terrible distributor and worse game manager. To make it all worse, his defense is poor. If his shot is on, he's a 50/50 contributor. If his shot is off, he's a detriment to the team.
                          Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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                          • #43
                            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            I think its fair game.
                            The comparison has been made more than a few times on the Forum, if memory serves me.

                            Both are "Scoring Guards" pulling Point Guard duties, and learning how to balance and control their competitive fire while still including the team.
                            I dunno, seems more like a psychological comparison, than one of their physical abilities.

                            Westbrook shoots better from the field (although not from distance), gets to the FT line more, earns more assists (while turning the ball over more), and is the far better defender. It helps to have better teammates I'm sure, but still...

                            For someone as unpolished as Westbrook, IMO he's miles ahead of Bayless.

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                            • #44
                              Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                              I think one of Barbosa and Bayless will be back next year, but not both. I prefer Barbosa if the salaries are equal (not that it will happen).
                              The Raptors can get a better player than Bayless for $4M/yr via free agency. I'm not sure why Barbosa would come back when he's not going to be able to demand more than the MLE and there will be teams lining up to offer him that and a shot at a ring.

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                              • #45
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                I dunno, seems more like a psychological comparison, than one of their physical abilities.
                                Well, judging by Chr1s1an's post:
                                So it's fine when player like Westbrook(who lead the league is TOs last year) thinks score first but when Bayless does it's a huge problem?
                                , the comparison was indeed, one of Psychological mindset.
                                I'm not sure he was ever truly comparing their overall abilities.


                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                For someone as unpolished as Westbrook, IMO he's miles ahead of Bayless.
                                I can't disagree with this.

                                However, I think some of that has to do with circumstance and where each was drafted.
                                Both were very heavily compared going into the draft as well, and Bayless was (I'm pretty sure) ranked just behind Westbrook in Guards for the Class.
                                Westbrook was given a situation where he had no competition for the Starting spot, and minimal competition for minutes. He was given free Reign. Bayless had to play behind Brandon Roy and Andre Miller. Both obvious Starters, and both obvious closers.
                                Only now is Bayless in a situation where he can play without looking over his shoulder, and even still, his leash is MUCH tighter than that of Westbrook. Westbrook is NOT a good facilitator. He gets his assists purely based on Minutes and his High Usage Rate.

                                Now I'm not saying Bayless is as good as Westbrook. Westbrook is an All-Star.
                                But I think their style of play, and focus to Score first, Pass Second, are certainly on Par with eachother.

                                ADD Whoa, that was longer than I anticipated ... whoopsy! haha

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