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Thread: HoopsWorld.com: Why Toronto Loves Amir Johnson

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    Default HoopsWorld.com: Why Toronto Loves Amir Johnson

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Brandon, $10M/yr is nothing close to max money. Franchise players get the max money deals. Jordan was making $30M/yr in '98. Shaq was making it right into his Miami days. If you want to talk bad deal let's talk Lewis and Arenas clearing well over $20M/yr. Go look up guys making in around $10M/yr and I guarantee you that Andrea is as impactful right now as most of them.

    Calderon was given fair market value. He was playing outstanding basketball when he was up for a contract and the Raptors had two choices, keep T.J., who was no longer getting along with Bosh, or keep Calderon and give him what he was worth at the time. They went with the guy who was saying all right things, getting along with everybody and staying healthy. If it wasn't Toronto somebody else would have given him that money the way he was playing. Amir's contract is not bad. Colangelo gave him a deal he felt Amir was worth and it's worked out really well. It looked risky when it was signed but I really don't know how you can sit there and criticize it now. For the play Amir gives them it's a high value contract and not to mention he could easily be moved tomorrow if they decided it was best for the team. Kleiza was a bad deal but it was also a relatively small deal as well which could easily be amnestied if need be. I think you need to turn down your hindsight goggles here a bit because it's clouding the discussion.
    They lost 60 games last year. How does that equate to things working out very well?


    *MODERATOR EDIT*

    For the first time ever a Bargnani thread got side tracked by another player. This is a season of many firsts. I have taken the Amir comments from the Everything Bargnani thread and included them in this thread. Post 8 has a HoopsWorld.com article discussing Amir - hence the new thread.

    (My apologies to Brandon for hijacking his post to clarify)
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Jan 15th, 2012 at 12:03 PM.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    They lost 60 games last year. How does that equate to things working out very well?
    What would you have done? That's not to be rude, but in all honesty I'm curious. Even with hindsight at your disposal, what would you have done that would have increased the win totals and put us on track for real success.

    Honestly, it couldn't have worked out much better.. Amir, a quality guy with good work ethic and intangibles is locked up for the future. He's good enough that, once the pieces are in place, he'll be a glue guy/difference maker. He's ineffective enough that, he wont give us a lousy ten extra wins that do nothing but move us farther away from landing a future star in the draft.

    Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, Andrea Bargnani and Demar Derozan. Are they allstars? Bargnani potentially, but as of now likely not. But if Jonas comes up and plays above his head and we strike gold in this years draft, which is nearing probable, than these four will prove invaluable and will be the reason why free-agent star chooses the future of Toronto over the future of New Jersey/Brooklyn.

    But seriously, what would you have done?

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    They lost 60 games last year. How does that equate to things working out very well?
    You expect a team to win a Championship after making the gigantic investment of $6M/yr into a player? If he wasn't playing good ball you'd probably be ripping him right now I'd imagine but seeing how he is you'll reserve your right to blame the 60 losses on that one signing?

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You expect a team to win a Championship after making the gigantic investment of $6M/yr into a player? If he wasn't playing good ball you'd probably be ripping him right now I'd imagine but seeing how he is you'll reserve your right to blame the 60 losses on that one signing?
    Is that how you define things working out very well? I wouldn't go that far, but if that's your standard, then you agree that things didn't work very well at all.

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    Quote RaptorFan (proud?..) wrote: View Post
    What would you have done? That's not to be rude, but in all honesty I'm curious. Even with hindsight at your disposal, what would you have done that would have increased the win totals and put us on track for real success.

    Honestly, it couldn't have worked out much better.. Amir, a quality guy with good work ethic and intangibles is locked up for the future. He's good enough that, once the pieces are in place, he'll be a glue guy/difference maker. He's ineffective enough that, he wont give us a lousy ten extra wins that do nothing but move us farther away from landing a future star in the draft.

    Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, Andrea Bargnani and Demar Derozan. Are they allstars? Bargnani potentially, but as of now likely not. But if Jonas comes up and plays above his head and we strike gold in this years draft, which is nearing probable, than these four will prove invaluable and will be the reason why free-agent star chooses the future of Toronto over the future of New Jersey/Brooklyn.

    But seriously, what would you have done?
    Pay me to do Colangelo's job and I'll tell you. I'm satisfied being a critic and explaining what I think are general mistakes and philosophical wrongheadedness from this regime rather than going into more detail.

    There are too many fans who think 'because I like player x's style, that translates into good things even if the wins aren't there.' I saw it to an alarming degree with Reggie Evans. The wins didn't happen, but people loved his on-court style. They just got blown out by 30, but at least Reggie got some playing time.

    I am once again reminded of this because of Apollo's "worked out very well" comment regarding Amir Johnson. He plays hard, to little effect. I'd say his marginal revenue product is about 10% of his current contract, and that's generous, and yet things are working very well. I think the style is the attraction: Lebron James effortlessly destroys his opponents, and hams it up for the home crowd while taunting the other team. Amir Johnson/Reggie Evans appears to expend limitless effort, nobly asks for little personal glory in return ... and his team gets blown off the court by 30+ points. I guess the conclusion I came to awhile back is: style is nothing. Talent is all.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Pay me to do Colangelo's job and I'll tell you. I'm satisfied being a critic and explaining what I think are general mistakes and philosophical wrongheadedness from this regime rather than going into more detail.

    There are too many fans who think 'because I like player x's style, that translates into good things even if the wins aren't there.' I saw it to an alarming degree with Reggie Evans. The wins didn't happen, but people loved his on-court style. They just got blown out by 30, but at least Reggie got some playing time.

    I am once again reminded of this because of Apollo's "worked out very well" comment regarding Amir Johnson. He plays hard, to little effect. I'd say his marginal revenue product is about 10% of his current contract, and that's generous, and yet things are working very well. I think the style is the attraction: Lebron James effortlessly destroys his opponents, and hams it up for the home crowd while taunting the other team. Amir Johnson/Reggie Evans appears to expend limitless effort, nobly asks for little personal glory in return ... and his team gets blown off the court by 30+ points. I guess the conclusion I came to awhile back is: style is nothing. Talent is all.

    Opinions are great. Everyone has them, everyone is entitled to them. The problem associated with opinions is they are not fact.


    The fact is this opinion of Amir is not backed up anything other than the opinion itself - which is fine but don't be surprised when people object.

    Amir averages 8.5 points on 60 fg%, 7.7 rebounds, 1 block and 1 steal per game.

    Through 10 games:
    his win% is 50% which is better than the teams record of 4-6 through 10.
    net points per 100 possession have the Raptors +2 with him on the court and -19 with him off for a +21 point on/off court differential.
    http://www.82games.com/1112/11TOR10.HTM

    Compare his $6M salary and production to other players, especially big men, around the league (who are not on rookie contracts). Here is the link to do so: http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm Some notable players on similar contracts (and in some instances even higher) include Trevor Ariza, Drew Gooden, Jermaine O'Neal, DeSanga Diop, Brendan Haywood, Jason Maxiell, Kwame Brown, Sam Dalembert, Metta World Peace, Glen Davis, Andres Nocioni, Francisco Garcia, .


    Statistics nor watching of Raptors games back up the opinion.


    I don't think anyone around here thinks Amir should be starting or would be starting on a top team. However, he is a piece moving forward. Bringing this back to Apollo's comments, he is on a very reasonable contract for a first big man off the bench which is what he will be in Toronto moving forward and the production he brings.


    Insinuating or placing the blame of a 60-loss season on Amir is ridiculous, in my opinion. The problem with Toronto is the lack of talent and having players play a role greater than they should be i.e. starters who are key reserves (like Amir), starters who should be third stringers or out of the league (like Rasual Butler), key bench players who are third string / 'specialty team' / matchup players (like James Johnson), and players who probably shouldn't be in the league based on their playing ability (like Jamaal Magloire).

    Hopefully next year JV, the 2012 pick, free agency, and any possible trade brings the Raptors to a point where guys have better suited roles to their abilities and strengths. Maybe a better way to say it is hopefully next year's roster has much more talent.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...Through 10 games:
    his win% is 50% which is better than the teams record of 4-6 through 10.
    net points per 100 possession have the Raptors +2 with him on the court and -19 with him off for a +21 point on/off court differential.
    http://www.82games.com/1112/11TOR10.HTM...
    Everybody knows numbers and statistics aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either.

    Right now, on this team, this is a good contract and Amir is a good player. If they could do better, then they should, but he is what he is, and that is a good player for the Raptors for what they had to pay.

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    Default Why Toronto Loves Amir Johnson

    Why Toronto Loves Amir Johnson

    Toronto is the fifth largest city in North America. NBA fans forget that because, frankly, the majority of the Raptors’ existence in Canada has been rife with lottery picks and sub-.500 seasons. Despite that fact, Raptors fans are some of the most devoted in the league, and they’ve been extremely supportive of a player many casual fans seem to have forgotten: Amir Johnson.

    Since coming to the team in the summer of 2009, Johnson has been a pretty average player, but that hasn’t stopped Toronto faithful from believing in the kid. Lucky for them, 2011-2012 looks like his best year yet as a pro ball player. That, at least, is what his coach thinks.

    “He’s been great for us,” Toronto head coach Dwayne Casey said. “His energy, his screening, his leadership has been huge, and he does a good job on the boards.”

    Johnson is averaging a career-high 8.1 rpg so far this season, and he’s started every game. He’s got seven double-digit rebounding nights already this year, and even though his scoring has dropped a little, Casey admits that isn’t something that they necessarily look for him to, anyway.

    “We don’t really depend on him a lot for big time scoring,” he said. “Some nights he’ll get some big, good numbers, but we really don’t depend on him offensively. He does what he’s supposed to, screening, moving the basketball, rebounding, and he’s one of our best interior defenders that we have.”

    That, according to Johnson, sounds just about right.

    “I’m supposed to come in everyday and guard their best big,” Johnson told HOOPSWORLD. “I’m going against some of the top 5’s in the NBA, so I’ve got to have my mind on set and be ready to battle every big I play.”

    It’s his defense, rebounding, and athleticism that have driven so many Raptors faithful into his corner. Even through struggles, they continue to insist he’s a player with a future, and don’t think for a minute that he’s been oblivious to that support.

    “The fans have been awesome,” he said. “The fans are actually what drives us, what drives this team, and they’ve been a big support. Even if we win or lose they still back us up. Even though Toronto’s like a big hockey city, they really love their (basketball) team, and the fans have been great.”

    However, once again this year the Raptors look like they’re going to struggle. But part of that is a new—and very good—head coach in Casey that didn’t get a full training camp with a very young team. Losing all that training camp, even with a returning head coach, would’ve been a challenge, and the team with the #5 pick in last year’s draft didn’t even get their lottery pick, talented Euro Jonas Valanciunas, to help improve upon the team’s dearth of talent. They won’t see him until next season.

    In short, it’s hard to win games with all that stacked against you.

    “That all matters,” Johnson said, “but we’re going to pick it up eventually. It’s really no excuses for us, but we’ve just got to groove together. We’re going to get it, man. We’re going to dig ourselves out of this hole. It’s early in the season, so we’ve just got to keep on playing. There’s no time to look down on ourselves. We’ve just got to move on to the next one.”

    Whatever happens to Johnson and the Raps, we know one thing is certain—undying support for both will be unwavering. In a down season, there’s not much more you can ask for than that.

    Source: HoopsWorld.com

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    Nice article. Sums up many fans feelings. Mine included. I like Amir.

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    Amir has slowly become my favourite player to watch on this Toronto team. Though the stat sheet does not always show it, he works harder then every other player on the floor, shows that he wants to win, and makes me as a fan want to watch games.

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    Last I checked, teams still need role players. If his role is to be our best defender... he's already worth the money. He's an elite offensive rebounder, elite pick and roll finisher, and if he works off the surgery rust, is usually very efficient in the little offense he does use up. If you have the talent to make Amir your 4th or 5th option, he will use those possessions more efficiently then almost anybody else in the league would be able to. On a good team, he is a bonus for you at both ends of the floor.

    You can't built your team around a player who can't create his own offense... but you can't built a team with with only those type of players either. They need each other to be successful. Somebody has to do all the dirty work required to put the scoring talent in a position to bring it home.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Is that how you define things working out very well? I wouldn't go that far, but if that's your standard, then you agree that things didn't work very well at all.
    It's how I define the signing of Amir Johnson, yes. Things are working out fine for Amir Johnson in Toronto. He is not the source of their current mediocrity. So yes, things are working out fine, he is a bright spot and his contract is of high value to the team.

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    I agree with that sentiment. To slag Amir in the same sentence as the team's record is stupid. Just look at the Timberwolves if you want to see extreme individual talent/effectiveness fail to correct a weak team's win-loss record.

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    Amir has always done a great job during his time in Toronto and at only 24, he's already become exactly the kind of high level role player a playoff contender needs. A guy like Taj Gibson is invaluable in Chicago, and Amir provides a similar value.

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    I like Amir but we basically gave up on Chris Kardashin. The raps would probably be a better team with Hump.

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    It took getting the boot from TO to show Kris that he needed to focus on rebounding and hustling more than trying to be an offensive weapon. I loved the guy, but he was a classic case of a guy not knowing his role and trying to do too much at the expensive of his team. Finally gets it..

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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    I like Amir but we basically gave up on Chris Kardashin. The raps would probably be a better team with Hump.
    Its the other way round. Hump would have been better off in Toronto.

    They put up similar numbers but Amir is better because of his work ethic, age and contract.

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    The best comparison to the Humphries we had was Andray Blatche, who I am sure is available if anybody in the league wants him. Blatche had one game last year with 16 offensive rebounds, but is too good for the dirty work. Best left dribbling the ball off his foot, and jacking up 20 foot, off-balance, off the dribble, fade-away's.

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