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Thread: Is the Future not as Bright? (or is the future brighter? see post 130)

  1. #61
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    I came into the season with low expectations because I don't believe this team has NBA-level talent, so I can't say I'm disappointed. Still, handing two winless teams their first (and washington's only) victories swept away what little optimism I had. The future is not bright, unless you want to bask in the shiny glow of draft speculation.

    DD is pretty much what he was two years ago. I know everyone goes on about his athleticism but he's not "Josh Smith" athletic. He's just a leaper with a weak handle and below average shooting skills for his position. Also not a great first step, which limits his ability to get his own shot.

    JJ is a discarded deep bench player. He's decent defensively and has good length, but if you're waiting for him to develop a jump shot you're going to be waiting a long time.

    ED sulked about going to the D-League and continues to sulk now. I haven't seen enough offensively to consider him a legit starter.

    Amir would make for a great 7th or 8th guy off the bench. Plays to his potential almost every night. Hustles. Sacrifices.

    Bayless = Jarrett Jack Part II. "Oh you scored on me, bitch? I'm going to drop a dime on you!".....clang.

    Calderon is an excellent second unit PG.

    AB is what he is. A defensive pylon with elite offensive skills and the basketball IQ and elevation of a turnip.

    I watch almost every Raptor game and most other games as well. Which doesn't mean shit, I know. But compared to most teams we're not better, deeper or stocked with young talent.
    Last edited by Copywryter; Thu Jan 19th, 2012 at 12:04 AM. Reason: the opening was terrible

  2. #62
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors can probably acquire more credible finishers than Demar, but right now, IMO, he should be the finisher. He should be in late game situations and i think he's actually had success when he does play late in the 4th.

    I think the reason why those two you mentioned have more success than him is because those two are PGs, and most of the time, they have control of the ball. And most of the time, they create plays, unlike Demar who has to wait for the ball from Calderon, who actually opts to give it to Bargnani rather than Demar. But you are right, Demar needs to take care of the ball and need to think 2-3 steps ahead. Im noticing a lot with him too is he dribbles trying to find a spot where he can take the jumpshot, or tries to find an opening in the defense where he can slash, but when he cant find one, he picks up the ball and then he gets swarmed. I think one of the basic teachings in basketball is never pickup your dribble unless youve decided to shoot or pass. i really dont know what going on with him right now.
    Not sure why you were expecting him to be an all star. he's put up points because he has got to the line in the past, and he's been more aggressive but he never really had the basketball talent to be a star IMO. He has a very hard time creating his own shot because he cannot dribble without giving it away or losing it off his foot, and if he does maintain possession he cannot shoot with any consistency. He can definitely be part of a playoff team if we ever get there but I'm pretty sure it will be from the bench because that is as much talent as he has.
    Personally I think Ed, JJ, and Bayless are exactly what I thought last year. Ed is a good big off the bench for rebounding and put backs and will eventually be a solid defender but not a star. JJ is a great defender, shot blocker and energy guy, but he dribbles the ball like Derozan, and shoots worse than me. Bayless is a piece of crap 3rd string PG at best.

  3. #63
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    I agree with almost everything here and also am not very surprised. What I disagree with is that I think Amir is a keeper and will be the best big off the bench, with Ed behind him in the rotation. I also agree that Derozan is and has been a below average SG, who has wowed fans because he can dunk in transition, and because very few teams actually play him hard because he is not a consistent threat. I think that Derozan as a 6th or 7th is a little high and would put him lower than that in talent. Amir is a better basketball player hands down. I hope BC sees Derozan for what he is and does not give him a crazy contract.

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Copywryter wrote: View Post
    Bayless = Jarrett Jack Part II. "Oh you scored on me, bitch? I'm going to drop a dime on you!".....clang.
    lol, so true
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #65
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    While we do have some nice pieces on our team, we have players who will turn into 'solid starters' and some decent reserves.
    Bayless can turn into the next Jason Terry (ceiling). His floor is Lou Williams.
    DeRozan could turn into the next Richard Jefferson.
    Davis could turn into the next PJ Brown
    Valanciunas could be the next Andris Biedrins (floor), Pau Gasol (ceiling).

    Now the collectively, the comparisons make up a solid team. Does it smack of a team that has a bright future? Not necessarily, but couple it with the ping pong balls aligning for a #1 pick or #2 pick this year, coupled with landing a top notch PG via free agency (hello Deron Williams or Russell Westbrook) and this team's future becomes much brighter. At this moment, I wouldn't say this team's future is bright. I'd say it's sunny with cloudy periods.

  6. #66
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    While we do have some nice pieces on our team, we have players who will turn into 'solid starters' and some decent reserves.
    Bayless can turn into the next Jason Terry (ceiling). His floor is Lou Williams.
    DeRozan could turn into the next Richard Jefferson.
    Davis could turn into the next PJ Brown
    Valanciunas could be the next Andris Biedrins (floor), Pau Gasol (ceiling).

    Now the collectively, the comparisons make up a solid team. Does it smack of a team that has a bright future? Not necessarily, but couple it with the ping pong balls aligning for a #1 pick or #2 pick this year, coupled with landing a top notch PG via free agency (hello Deron Williams or Russell Westbrook) and this team's future becomes much brighter. At this moment, I wouldn't say this team's future is bright. I'd say it's sunny with cloudy periods.
    I don't know if it's accurate to say Bayless's "floor" is Lou Williams. Floor usually means "can't get any worse" (just as ceiling means "can't get any higher", and right now Bayless is definitely worse than Lou Williams.

    Bayless's floor is probably Avery Bradley.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #67
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't know if it's accurate to say Bayless's "floor" is Lou Williams. Floor usually means "can't get any worse" (just as ceiling means "can't get any higher", and right now Bayless is definitely worse than Lou Williams.

    Bayless's floor is probably Avery Bradley.
    At a shade over 14 minutes and averaging a bit over 8 ppg, I'd say his floor is Lou Williams - an undersized, instant offense player that comes off the bench and doesn't offer much more than that.

    How can his floor be someone worse than he is at the moment, or someone who is younger than him?

    I think Williams is an apt comparison. He gets 25-27 minutes a night and is just counted upon to score coming off the bench.

  8. #68
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    DeMar's ceiling is very hard to tell right now. Half way through the season we'll see where he's at.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    Too early to make any judgements. New system takes time. By this time next year we will really have a very solid young core (not what we have now, despite was is said), with 2 rookies coming in that will be higher touted than Derozan and ED ever were. (plus a fully implemented system)

    Also, in my opinion, when Derozan is surrounded by better players he will explode. A sharpshooter at the SF spot would really open things up for him (see Rasual Butler, but a good shooter)
    Last edited by IROR; Thu Jan 19th, 2012 at 02:32 PM.

  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    Not sure why you were expecting him to be an all star. he's put up points because he has got to the line in the past, and he's been more aggressive but he never really had the basketball talent to be a star IMO. He has a very hard time creating his own shot because he cannot dribble without giving it away or losing it off his foot, and if he does maintain possession he cannot shoot with any consistency. He can definitely be part of a playoff team if we ever get there but I'm pretty sure it will be from the bench because that is as much talent as he has.
    Personally I think Ed, JJ, and Bayless are exactly what I thought last year. Ed is a good big off the bench for rebounding and put backs and will eventually be a solid defender but not a star. JJ is a great defender, shot blocker and energy guy, but he dribbles the ball like Derozan, and shoots worse than me. Bayless is a piece of crap 3rd string PG at best.
    I think he has talent, and yes, he can be an all-star IMO. After all the holes in his game (which i agree are holes in his game) that you mentioned (cant create shot, cannot dribble, etc etc) he still "managed" to average 14 pts this year, to me, thats talent. The guy has immense talent, he just doesnt have the energy or drive right now to improve or add to what he already has. And the shortened season is not helping either. Ironically, i think he's turning into the Bargnani of last year, content to just be wallowing in what he can get and not strive for more. Im disappointed in him tho coz he was projected to have a breakout year this season, but like i mentioned before, who knows, there might be a minor injury or some internal thing that we dont know thats affecting his play. But either way, im still disappointed.

    Also, if you look at the superstars in the league, getting to the line is one of their common traits. Getting to line helps the team open up defenses and gives you a bigger chance of getting points than shooting a jumpshot or 3. So since Demar's got that down already, so a little tweak with his defense and effort, i think he'll be all-star material, no doubt.

  11. #71
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    Default Please Trade DD ASAP - before people figure out how bad he is

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    My prediction is everyone is back on the DeRozan bandwagon by the end of the season. He changed his offensive game in the off-season, he has a new coach and didn't get much of a camp. I sense there is some confusion on how he puts it all together. Give him time.
    Demar is not a good basketball player. Have not been on his bankwagon and never will be. His offence is supposed to be his strength and it is really not that good at all - his fundamentals are horrible - he does not use screens properly, does not pin and pop effectivelyto get open on the wing (watch to see home many times Calderon looks him off because he has not gotten himself open), never even uses a jab step or ball fake to get the defender 'off balance' so he can attack the rim. These are all basic things you learn in high-school. He is one of those players (see Fred Jones) who has relied on his athleticism to get him this far. However, he does not have the tools to succeed. His defence and basketball IQ are horrible, and to top it all off he seems extremly soft.

  12. #72
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote black angus wrote: View Post
    Demar is not a good basketball player. Have not been on his bankwagon and never will be. His offence is supposed to be his strength and it is really not that good at all - his fundamentals are horrible - he does not use screens properly, does not pin and pop effectivelyto get open on the wing (watch to see home many times Calderon looks him off because he has not gotten himself open), never even uses a jab step or ball fake to get the defender 'off balance' so he can attack the rim. These are all basic things you learn in high-school. He is one of those players (see Fred Jones) who has relied on his athleticism to get him this far. However, he does not have the tools to succeed. His defence and basketball IQ are horrible, and to top it all off he seems extremly soft.
    Not sure what you mean by bankwagon

    i may agree with some of your points, but youre definitely way off on others.

    Demar maybe struggling, but last year he was 47%FG, 5FTM, 17PTS/game
    And this year, he improved his 3PT% by 26%! whoa!
    I think he just needs to do a bit of zen and yoga to get his head straight and he'll be fine.

    Besides, Fred Jones never avg more than 10pts, 3reb, 2FTM and 38%3PTM, in his entire career in the NBA. How is that even close to Demar? If Jones relied on his athleticism and produced only numbers like this, then Demar is superhuman.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Jan 19th, 2012 at 04:35 PM.

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic Starter Ryan_1523's Avatar
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    Is anyone but me sick of the DeRozan hate yet..? I think people are taking it way too far in saying how shit he is.. Go back and watch video of how he played last year and it'll disprove everything you say about his fundamentals. This really is beginning to be Bargnani 2.0. It's no trouble to tell he's struggling, that's the only time the haters come out. I think the only reasonable step now is to make an "Everything DeRozan" thread so we can keep it all in one place and prevent it from poisoning every thread on the forums.

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Ryan_1523 wrote: View Post
    Is anyone but me sick of the DeRozan hate yet..? I think people are taking it way too far in saying how shit he is.. Go back and watch video of how he played last year and it'll disprove everything you say about his fundamentals. This really is beginning to be Bargnani 2.0. It's no trouble to tell he's struggling, that's the only time the haters come out. I think the only reasonable step now is to make an "Everything DeRozan" thread so we can keep it all in one place and prevent it from poisoning every thread on the forums.
    Come it will, my young jedi, hehehe

  15. #75
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    I think he's confused himself a little and he's having trouble fitting into this limited offensive system. He worked hard on his shot in the off-season but he's just not playing the same way he did last season. Instead of playing like he did last season and now using his improved shot to punish people for backing off him, he's simply been settling and that not good seeing as his jumper still needs quite an amount of work. On top of that the whole offense has no flow under Casey so far. Yeah, yeah, they lack talent but I knew and said this would happen. Casey isn't an offense guy, he's a defensive specialist and say what you want about Jay but he's better at coaching offense than Casey. This isn't meant to be a knock on Casey, it's just the reality. He wasn't brought here to help this team light the league on fire with great offense. That will come once he gets better player personnel but in the meantime he's showing that he's not going to be able to overcome the lack of weapons on offense like Jay did in keeping the offense respectable with virtually the same squad. I like Casey and I feel he's a better coach than Triano .However, Casey's coaching and the fact that they had virtually no camp isn't helping DeMar at all. I feel they need to add a top notch offensive coordinator or at least somebody who can do a better job of giving DeMar guidance... You know, a guy like Alex English? Funny thing...

  16. #76
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Ryan_1523 wrote: View Post
    Is anyone but me sick of the DeRozan hate yet..? I think people are taking it way too far in saying how shit he is.. Go back and watch video of how he played last year and it'll disprove everything you say about his fundamentals. This really is beginning to be Bargnani 2.0. It's no trouble to tell he's struggling, that's the only time the haters come out. I think the only reasonable step now is to make an "Everything DeRozan" thread so we can keep it all in one place and prevent it from poisoning every thread on the forums.
    You're a student, so I'll assume you're a younger fan. Once you've been around for awhile, you will learn that Raptor fans always need a scapegoat to cast the sins of the organization on. It's easier that way to deal with crapiness of the entire organization.

    Before Derozan, there was Bargnani. Before Bargnani, there was Bosh. Before Bosh, there was Carter. Before Carter, there was McGrady. Before McGrady, there was Mighty Mouse. Thus it has always been, thus it will always be.

    Now, once in awhile enough people wake up and wonder why people like Glen Grunwald and Rob Babcock are making personnel decisions (as though unimportant tasks like drafting, signing free agents, trading players and building a team matter). This will result in management being replaced. The new management team will generally be feted and, since it's too painful and scary to believe that the guys running the place for the next 5 years are terrible (e.g. Babcock) or, in the case of the current management team, have done a horrible job to date, Raptors fans will pick a new player to blame the team's woes on. This makes Raptor fans feel better as they watch another 28-win season secure in the knowledge that once that awful player is gone, everything will turn a corner.

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote black angus wrote: View Post
    Demar is not a good basketball player. Have not been on his bankwagon and never will be. His offence is supposed to be his strength and it is really not that good at all - his fundamentals are horrible - he does not use screens properly, does not pin and pop effectivelyto get open on the wing (watch to see home many times Calderon looks him off because he has not gotten himself open), never even uses a jab step or ball fake to get the defender 'off balance' so he can attack the rim. These are all basic things you learn in high-school. He is one of those players (see Fred Jones) who has relied on his athleticism to get him this far. However, he does not have the tools to succeed. His defence and basketball IQ are horrible, and to top it all off he seems extremly soft.
    You might be confusing DeRozan with yourself.

  18. #78
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Ryan_1523 wrote: View Post
    Is anyone but me sick of the DeRozan hate yet..? I think people are taking it way too far in saying how shit he is.. Go back and watch video of how he played last year and it'll disprove everything you say about his fundamentals. This really is beginning to be Bargnani 2.0. It's no trouble to tell he's struggling, that's the only time the haters come out. I think the only reasonable step now is to make an "Everything DeRozan" thread so we can keep it all in one place and prevent it from poisoning every thread on the forums.
    ya its complete BS. Once he gets the offense going and our perimeter players start hitting some shots he'll be all good. It takes time with a new coach and limited practice time.

  19. #79
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Ryan_1523 wrote: View Post
    Is anyone but me sick of the DeRozan hate yet..? I think people are taking it way too far in saying how shit he is.. Go back and watch video of how he played last year and it'll disprove everything you say about his fundamentals. This really is beginning to be Bargnani 2.0. It's no trouble to tell he's struggling, that's the only time the haters come out. I think the only reasonable step now is to make an "Everything DeRozan" thread so we can keep it all in one place and prevent it from poisoning every thread on the forums.
    By Valentine's Day the bandwagon will be full again. You can remind the haters at that time.

    I think he'll snap out of it but he is certainly driving me nuts at this time. The pussy-ness and demeanour upset me more than anything in his current stat line.

    If anything these struggles are showing all that he should not be considered untouchable and if he can help net an established wing player, there should be no hesitation pulling the trigger.

  20. #80
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    By Valentine's Day the bandwagon will be full again. You can remind the haters at that time.

    I think he'll snap out of it but he is certainly driving me nuts at this time. The pussy-ness and demeanour upset me more than anything in his current stat line.

    If anything these struggles are showing all that he should not be considered untouchable and if he can help net an established wing player, there should be no hesitation pulling the trigger.
    I agree - I think the swings between ineptness and brilliance are part of the maturation process - he is only 22. Vince Carters early time in Toronto set the bars so high it is a tad unfair.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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