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Thread: Wilson Chandler to Toronto? Forget about it (473)

  1. #161
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Yuck. If that's the market price for middle of the road (and worse) SFs, then I'd be more inclined to accumulate more draft picks or do a draft day deal for a stud SF prospect.

    Denver had the top team offensive rating in the NBA last year, yet Chandler's ORTG and overall numbers dropped noticeably (OR: 109-->96). Playing time was not the main issue since he played over 30MPG. That's a bit concerning.
    Chandler only played 21 games with Denver. I think that's too small of a sample size considering the new coach, teammates, and system he was facing.
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  2. #162
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure I agree.

    There are a few front loaded contracts around. JJ Redick and Kirk Hinrich come immediately to mind.

    I think total dollars of the contract is the key.

    Some people would prefer to have more money coming up front. Personally, I'd rather have the money sooner than later.
    A dollar today is worth more than a dollar next year. Front loaded is definitely better for the player.

  3. #163
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I do not understand the fascination over Wilson Chandler. He's an okay player, not great, his defense is average and his offense is decent. We need to be looking at game changers, not average guys like Wilson Chandler.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  4. #164
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I do not understand the fascination over Wilson Chandler. He's an okay player, not great, his defense is average and his offense is decent. We need to be looking at game changers, not average guys like Wilson Chandler.
    We don't have the assets to acquire "game changers" unless it's through the draft.

    I don't think of Chandler as average. I think he's already above average, and is still young with plenty of room to get better.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #165
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    We don't have the assets to acquire "game changers" unless it's through the draft.

    I don't think of Chandler as average. I think he's already above average, and is still young with plenty of room to get better.
    Also Wilson Chandler, on a decent contract, is a good asset to have when talking a deal for a game changer.

    I agree Chandler is not average.

  6. #166
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Also Wilson Chandler, on a decent contract, is a good asset to have when talking a deal for a game changer.

    I agree Chandler is not average.
    Chandler (or any player for that matter) is only an "asset" if he's on a bargain contract, relative to how he's playing and/or the year of the contract. Otherwise, he becomes a burden instead of an asset (see Turk, Jose, etc...). In the new CBA, bargain contracts are even more valuable, with less room for mistakes like overpaying middle tier free agents (BC's historical weakness).

  7. #167
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Chandler (or any player for that matter) is only an "asset" if he's on a bargain contract, relative to how he's playing and/or the year of the contract. Otherwise, he becomes a burden instead of an asset (see Turk, Jose, etc...). In the new CBA, bargain contracts are even more valuable, with less room for mistakes like overpaying middle tier free agents (BC's historical weakness).
    In general I'd agree. However Turk became Barbosa. If it wasn't for MJ last minute pull out after players had been told of trade, Calderon would have become Diaw and Tyson Chandler. It is not always the case and there are exceptions to the rule.

    Players generally reach free agency after time spent in the league. Bargains in free agency are few and far between. Now steals in trades, that is another matter.

    In trading for a game changer, what is it teams look for? Generally:

    - financial relief
    - one solid starter or rotational player
    - a couple of prospects to balance the money
    - draft picks.

    Chandler on an $7-8M contract would certainly provide the solid rotational player or contract.

  8. #168
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Via Twitter.com:

    WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
    Wilson Chandler likely to have longer stay in China. Playoffs start Feb. 22 or so. If team reaches China finals, could go until late March.

  9. #169
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    His team is only ranked 4th so maybe they get knocked out early?

  10. #170
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure I agree.

    There are a few front loaded contracts around. JJ Redick and Kirk Hinrich come immediately to mind.

    I think total dollars of the contract is the key.
    That's kinda what I've been trying to say. Front-loaded contracts are generally worth less. Take Wesley Matthews (who was in a similar situation like Chandler) for example: 2 seasons ago he signed with the Blazers for 34M/5 yrs frontloaded when he could've easily pushed for 8-9M a year.
    Some people would prefer to have more money coming up front. Personally, I'd rather have the money sooner than later.
    Well who wouldn't? More money upfront is worth more money in the future. This is economics 101, people.

  11. #171
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I do not understand the fascination over Wilson Chandler. He's an okay player, not great, his defense is average and his offense is decent. We need to be looking at game changers, not average guys like Wilson Chandler.
    news flash average guys are game changers!
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  12. #172
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    i am not allowed to open youtube in china but i found a bunch of chandler highlights from his season there. they are highlights so take them with a grain of salt but if you just type chandler cba you get a shitload. he had a great year and is rocking an awesome playoff beard right now.

  13. #173
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    news flash average guys are game changers!

    +1 big shot bob horry

  14. #174
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Last edited by Miekenstien; Fri Feb 3rd, 2012 at 02:50 AM.

  15. #175
    Raptors Republic Rookie bigmanshaq's Avatar
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    one of options the raps explored was to send Calderon to Lakers for their TPE, I think we should ask for their Rookie 6'5 PG Darius Morris back as well in return, he led his conference in assist while he played for Michigan, he could gain some good experience playing for Raps and perhaps turn into a solid starter for us (also dispelled the notion that Jerryd Bayless is a PG)

  16. #176
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote bigmanshaq wrote: View Post
    one of options the raps explored was to send Calderon to Lakers for their TPE, I think we should ask for their Rookie 6'5 PG Darius Morris back as well in return, he led his conference in assist while he played for Michigan, he could gain some good experience playing for Raps and perhaps turn into a solid starter for us (also dispelled the notion that Jerryd Bayless is a PG)
    The Lakers TPE is not large enough to acquire Calderon.

  17. #177
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In general I'd agree. However Turk became Barbosa. If it wasn't for MJ last minute pull out after players had been told of trade, Calderon would have become Diaw and Tyson Chandler. It is not always the case and there are exceptions to the rule.
    Turkoglu became Barbosa, but that also wasted an entire season, not to mention that Turkoglu is a starter. As for Calderon, I'm not going to comment on a trade rumor that never happened.. it's kind of like saying your Mom said you could have a car for your 16th birthday but Dad (who has the final say) says no. Calderon is currently the 6th highest paid point guard in the league, and he still has another year remaining in his contract. This is a 30 year old point guard with career averages of 10 points and 7 assists. I love Jose Calderon to death, but he is way overpaid. Lucky for us his contract will finally become an asset next season after 4 years of waiting.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Chandler on an $7-8M contract would certainly provide the solid rotational player or contract.
    I don't know that Chandler is worth that kind of money. Or maybe he is, but not on this team? If we keep signing these average guys to $30M contracts (approx 4 years), we are never going to be great. I do not think the way this team is built, we should be pursuing rotational players at that price until we've first got our starters in place. Contending teams all have rotational guys like Chandler as a final piece of the puzzle (or at least what they think could be the final piece).

    For the Raptors, DeRozan and Bayless have clearly not shown, so far, that they are part of our future. Our C has yet to play an NBA game. Basically all we have right now is Bargnani and bunch of barely-rotation-worthy players. I don't think we should be investing $30M into guys like Chandler when we have not even figured out who is going to be in our starting lineup. For all we know next year we'll have Harrison Barnes or that Gilchrist kid, who we will desperately want to give minutes, but we just gave Chandler $8M per for the next 4 years. That is certainly not money a rebuilding team should be paying to a guy who will play less than 20 minutes per game for most of his contract.

    Alternatives I would look at guys who not necessarily are as good as Chandler, but provide similar things and can be had at a substantially lower price. I think we already have one in James Johnson. Chandler is an above average defender due to his length and athleticism, great offensively around the basket, but fairly poor away from it. A guy who I would have targeted last off-season is Reggie Williams. He plays solid defense, can score from anywhere (though he's not as athletic as Chandler), but he could come in at a fraction of the cost of Chandler.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  18. #178
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    For all we know next year we'll have Harrison Barnes or that Gilchrist kid, who we will desperately want to give minutes, but we just gave Chandler $8M per for the next 4 years. That is certainly not money a rebuilding team should be paying to a guy who will play less than 20 minutes per game for most of his contract.
    If Chandler is signed, he'll be our starting SF (which means 30+ minutes per night).

    I understand the strategy of filling out the roster once the starters are set. But if you have an opportunity to obtain a starter, then IMO, you go for it. Otherwise, we're just wasting valuable years "waiting" for our draft projects to develop (if they develop at all). $6-8M for a young, proven player is not overpaying for someone with Chandler's skill set.
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  19. #179
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    I tend to agree on what we have in James Johnson (at 2.8M for next year) vs. what Chandler would bring for 3x as much money and a longer-term commitment.
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  20. #180
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Turkoglu became Barbosa, but that also wasted an entire season, not to mention that Turkoglu is a starter. As for Calderon, I'm not going to comment on a trade rumor that never happened.. it's kind of like saying your Mom said you could have a car for your 16th birthday but Dad (who has the final say) says no. Calderon is currently the 6th highest paid point guard in the league, and he still has another year remaining in his contract. This is a 30 year old point guard with career averages of 10 points and 7 assists. I love Jose Calderon to death, but he is way overpaid. Lucky for us his contract will finally become an asset next season after 4 years of waiting.
    Turk was a starter? What does that have to do with anything? You said players were only assets if they were on bargain contracts. Clearly Turk was not a bargain contract yet he was an asset that was able to be flipped for Barbosa - and Turk had 4 years and over $40M left on his contract!

    The Calderon to Charlotte trade was not a rumour. It was a done deal that was reneged on last minute which Charlotte and MJ have a history of doing. The players were informed and Chandler announced it on Twitter. That is not a rumour, that is a pullout.

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I don't know that Chandler is worth that kind of money. Or maybe he is, but not on this team? If we keep signing these average guys to $30M contracts (approx 4 years), we are never going to be great. I do not think the way this team is built, we should be pursuing rotational players at that price until we've first got our starters in place. Contending teams all have rotational guys like Chandler as a final piece of the puzzle (or at least what they think could be the final piece).

    For the Raptors, DeRozan and Bayless have clearly not shown, so far, that they are part of our future. Our C has yet to play an NBA game. Basically all we have right now is Bargnani and bunch of barely-rotation-worthy players. I don't think we should be investing $30M into guys like Chandler when we have not even figured out who is going to be in our starting lineup. For all we know next year we'll have Harrison Barnes or that Gilchrist kid, who we will desperately want to give minutes, but we just gave Chandler $8M per for the next 4 years. That is certainly not money a rebuilding team should be paying to a guy who will play less than 20 minutes per game for most of his contract.

    Alternatives I would look at guys who not necessarily are as good as Chandler, but provide similar things and can be had at a substantially lower price. I think we already have one in James Johnson. Chandler is an above average defender due to his length and athleticism, great offensively around the basket, but fairly poor away from it. A guy who I would have targeted last off-season is Reggie Williams. He plays solid defense, can score from anywhere (though he's not as athletic as Chandler), but he could come in at a fraction of the cost of Chandler.
    Chandler has shown he is an above average starter in the NBA. If you can get him on a reasonable contract you go for it. He is better than anything currently on the roster at the wing position - offensively and defensively.

    If Chandler was 29/30 and a below average player, I'd be in agreement. But we are talking about a 24 year old entering the prime years of his career who is a great defender and extremely versatile. If the idea is to hit the ground running next year, Chandler is certainly a piece to help achieve that. Also, it seems evident to me, that the end plan is not ''stick with what we have and add Wilson'. There are many more changes to come.

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