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Thread: Jose Calderon is the most underappreciated Raptor of all time

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Madman's Avatar
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    Default Jose Calderon is the most underappreciated Raptor of all time

    I was watching the Spurs - Thunder game tonight and saw Tony Parker set the all time franchise record for assists with 4,475. I thought that number was pretty low for such a good PG. So I started looking at Jose's numbers (our franchise leader in assists) and before I go any further, I know Parker is more of scoring first point guard than Jose was/is.

    Tony Parker has 4,475 assist in 770 games & 25,406 minutes,
    Jose Calderon has 3,179 assistst in 451 games & 12,644 minutes

    If you put Jose's assist per minute (which is not guaranteed that he would've continued throughout his career) and add another 10,000 minutes (he'd have to play around 30 minutes per game over 4 seasons, which coincidentally how many more years Parker has experience over Calderon) you could add another 2,514 assists to his total to give him

    Jose Calderon around 5,693 assists in 779 games in 22,644 minutes

    The thing I find really interesting about this is everyone would agree that over their total time in the NBA the Spurs have been in another category above the Raptors in terms of talent, you would think that Tony Parker would fluke himself into more assists solely based on the level of talent on his team even if he was primarily looking for his shot.

    I know most of this post is completely based on nothing and it really isn't meant to be about the numbers but more about how we view Jose. The guy is easily the best point guard this franchise has ever had and yea he is not perfect and can't defend, but if you honestly go back and look at the guys he's played with (which is honestly really just a list of guys not in the NBA anymore) it makes it even more impressive. Hell maybe if he had a Dwayne Casey type coach from the beginning he wouldnt be such an awful defender. There is a thing about the typical Toronto sports fan we hate on the guys we have, but would be dying to have a pass first point guard like this.

    ***EDIT***

    a friend on twitter brought up a good point to me, if you add all those minutes what happens to his turnovers, so taking his turnovers per minute and added those 10,000 minutes, this is what you end up with

    Tony Parker has 1,944 Turnovers
    Jose Calderon has 772 Turnovers

    With 10,000 mins added Jose would have 1,382 TOs, still assist to Turnover ratio of 4 to 1
    Last edited by Madman; Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:53 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Regression's Avatar
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    I applaud his longevity but stats on bad teams are misleading. It's an unfair comparison. Parker is a 3x NBA champion, 1 time Final's MVP and 3 time All-Star, regardless whether he also played alongside Duncan.

    Difference:




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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    I think you missed the point Regression. It wasn't "calderon is better than Parker," it was "Calderon is a lot better than we give credit for. If Tim Duncan was on our team we'd have won championships by now too. Just saying

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Madman's Avatar
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    I think you missed the point Regression. It wasn't "calderon is better than Parker," it was "Calderon is a lot better than we give credit for. If Tim Duncan was on our team we'd have won championships by now too. Just saying
    yea this is what i meant

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    A person could do an average scoring efficiency of the Raptors starting five during Jose's career, and then compare his assists total against the totals of other high level pg's versus their teams scoring efficiency. I am sure he would come out very well.

    Think how many times this year we have seen him pass to DeRozan, Butler or JJ only to have them air ball it or clank it off the rim. If any of them were shooting with even average %'s for their positions, his assist totals for the year would be through the roof. True for the rest of his career in TO. Bosh was the only player he played with who consistently hit at a high efficiency.

    Good thread and nice comparison of numbers with Parker.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie The Fox's Avatar
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    Very good thread and I wholeheartedly agree!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Regression wrote: View Post
    I applaud his longevity but stats on bad teams are misleading. It's an unfair comparison. Parker is a 3x NBA champion, 1 time Final's MVP and 3 time All-Star, regardless whether he also played alongside Duncan.
    People use the whole "good stats on a bad team" wayyyy to much. I can understand the argument of like Mike James having good stats on a bad team (with 20 points a game on a bad raptors team), but the argument is being made in regards to Jose is that Jose has done far better distributing the ball, with far less talent on his team. That is why the whole "good stats on a bad team" does not apply here.
    Last edited by Red and White; Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:08 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    im going to say that the quitter is the most under appreciated raptor of all time. no one brought more spotlight or glory to the raps then the quitter.

    i also think that you are confusing "best intrest of the team" with "not appreciating" jose is going to get the biggest ovation of any player coming back to toronto when he is on another team.

    as fans we want the team to win. thats why we didnt follow bosh to miami, our hate did. for our team right now jose in another jersey is best.

    also on skill alone, i think damon was the best point guard we ever had.
    Last edited by Miekenstien; Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:18 PM.

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    A lot of the posters are of the type "trade X while his value is high" and would trade Jose for a late first round pick given the opportunity. Me, I am tired of the swing for the fences strategy and would prefer the Raptors would make incremental gains.

    I think the latter is more likely with Jose on the team than with creating a huge hole at point guard with the hope the draft pick turns into a very good player. Jose can likely play 24+ minutes per game for the next three years and that gives the Raptors some flexibility as to find a replacement.

    Assuming they extend him, of course (but not at $10M per year please).

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I think it's highly unlikely Calderon gets extended. Call it a gut feeling, but I just don't see it happening.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think it's highly unlikely Calderon gets extended. Call it a gut feeling, but I just don't see it happening.
    good gut. i hope bc sends him to a contender so he can play for something. he will say the right things when he is gone and so will the raps. it will a we can still be friends break up i hope.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Even if this thread is about appreciating Calderon more, in order to push this sentiment forward, wouldn't it be more effective to compare Calderon to another pure point guard, which Tony Parker is not?
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Even if this thread is about appreciating Calderon more, in order to push this sentiment forward, wouldn't it be more effective to compare Calderon to another pure point guard, which Tony Parker is not?
    The Tony Parker comparison only came up because he just passed Avery Johnson for the most assists all time for the Spurs, not because they play similar.

    I think Jose gets a little under-appreciated due to his somewhat fragile body over his tenure as a Raptor. He has played 68 games a season over the last 3, with many of those at not quite 100%. We are a better team when he is on the floor, and he does his job well. Make open shots, hit guys on the pick n roll, and take care of the ball.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Jose's biggest problem (at least on the offensive end) is his inability to create his own shot. Without a big man's screen, Jose is essentially useless with the ball in his hands. It's basically the only thing separating Jose from the truly elite pass-first PGs.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Good stuff, Madman!!!
    My opinion, off the top of my humble head, is that he's excessively under-appreciated because some are either:
    - stuck on not appreciating someone unless they're at a Steve Nash or Chris Paul level
    - or aren't turned on by a guy not playing with the panache of a street baller
    - or stuck on criticism being the in thing, or their favourite activity
    - or stuck on any piece of criticism of a Raptors player endorsing the "hang BC" faction which they're part of
    - or simply happier when whining about something

    He hasn't been perfect by any means, but he's been a loyal, hard working, team first pro, that has provided mostly very good court time despite not having much of the same around him most of the time. I think it's a shame he's as under-appreciated as he is, but it's almost sinful that he gets heaped on with so much derision when he has a bad game, which every player has sometimes, even the very best.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    A lot of the posters are of the type "trade X while his value is high"
    That's where we see cruel part of NBA.. Trade on high to get better asset!
    It should not work like that... I see him as a franchise player. Right. Franchise guy should not always be a superstar. He's just the guy you want to start and finish career on the team.. You can have few guys like that i believe.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    The Tony Parker comparison only came up because he just passed Avery Johnson for the most assists all time for the Spurs, not because they play similar.
    Then comparison is even more bizarre, because Avery Johnson wasn't known as a great distributor either.

    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    I think Jose gets a little under-appreciated due to his somewhat fragile body over his tenure as a Raptor. He has played 68 games a season over the last 3, with many of those at not quite 100%. We are a better team when he is on the floor, and he does his job well. Make open shots, hit guys on the pick n roll, and take care of the ball.
    I think comparing Calderon to Parker actually illustrates exactly why he isn't appreciated that much. Parker is not a distributor because he's a great scorer, with instinct around the basket and able to get to the line. I mean, take a look at the reasons why Calderon is not as appreciated as Parker is by Spurs fans (these numbers included the 10,000 minutes calculation used previously in this thread):

    Calderon: 7,913 points
    Parker: 12,933 points

    Calderon: 3061 field goals
    Parker: 5143 field goals

    Calderon: 1181 free throws
    Parker: 2296 free throws

    Perhaps if Calderon could only be more like Parker, then we'd appreciate him more.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Then comparison is even more bizarre, because Avery Johnson wasn't known as a great distributor either.



    I think comparing Calderon to Parker actually illustrates exactly why he isn't appreciated that much. Parker is not a distributor because he's a great scorer, with instinct around the basket and able to get to the line. I mean, take a look at the reasons why Calderon is not as appreciated as Parker is by Spurs fans (these numbers included the 10,000 minutes calculation used previously in this thread):

    Calderon: 7,913 points
    Parker: 12,933 points

    Calderon: 3061 field goals
    Parker: 5143 field goals

    Calderon: 1181 free throws
    Parker: 2296 free throws

    Perhaps if Calderon could only be more like Parker, then we'd appreciate him more.

    Being an integral part of a team that has never won fewer than 50 games (54 wins the next lowest with the average around 57 wins per season) and having won 3 championships might be a good way for the Raptors faithful to truly appreciate Jose Calderon.

    Jose is a great guy and a great teammate from all accounts but he has hardly been a difference maker for this team nor has he helped guide them to the upper echelon of the league.

    Comparing Jose to Parker, from a game and achievement perspective, is an insult to Tony Parker.

    I appreciate all Jose has done and tried to do. He has shown, when healthy, he is a solid NBA starting PG. Personally, given his age, desire to represent Spain this summer, and contract, if the Raptors have an opportunity to get better moving forward without him then so be it. It is not like keeping McHale and Parrish around for all they have accomplished and done - which was a big mistake given hindsight. Calderon has done nothing but be a nice guy and good teammate. In my opinion that is not worthy keeping him around at the expense of the franchise moving forward. With that said, I would not get rid of the guy just to get rid of him - it would have to be a good move for Toronto.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...but he has hardly been a difference maker for this team nor has he helped guide them to the upper echelon of the league...
    And can you imagine how well the team would have played if the alternatives had been the starting point guards?

    Or turn it around. Imagine if BC had drafted guys that could shoot better, or if he had hired a coach who could teach defence?

    What if you had a coach like Casey five years ago? With Calderon and the other players on the Raps then?

    Having said that, as you finished your post with, I agree, he isn't a difference maker, but he IS a starting level point guard and has been from his first year pretty much. And if the Raps can get better by making a deal that also sends him to a better team, all good.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    And can you imagine how well the team would have played if the alternatives had been the starting point guards?
    Highlighting how poor his competition has been over the years, isn't exactly a glowing endorsement for Calderon. Yes, he's been better than Ford, Jack, Solomon, Martin and Ukic....but who isn't?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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