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Thread: Losing wisely

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Rookie Fanchie's Avatar
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    Default Losing wisely

    Not that players should have a plan when it comes to losing : they need to try to win every single night.

    But for us, fans, in the midst of this transition season, I think I'm ok with losing to the Wizards. I don't want us to have too good of a record in the end, so as long as we don't get blown out, I'm fine with losing. But if we are to win some games (and we need to, in order to keep the guys involved/keep the fans away from nervous breakdown), I'd much rather get beaten by the Wizards (so that players feel ashamed and want to work their ass off to make it up to themselves) and beat Utah on the road (so that players get the over-achievement thrill, team spirit building and realize they have potential).

    So count me in for a 12-44 record, as long as those last 4 wins come vs San Antonio (Feb 15th), @Chicago (Mar 24th), @OKC (Apr 8th) and @Miami (Apr 18th). Quality over quantity.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    i think i would rather us beat the worst team in the league and lose hard fought games to the top guys as long as we can beat the celtics everytime and the lakers once.lol

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Personally, I want to see the players that Casey puts out there battle each night but I am not exactly upset that the Raptors are in a position right now to have a legit chance at winning the #1 overall pick in the lottery. If they end up with a top five pick, when you consider that JV will be here next season and they'll have a good chunk of money to play with in the off-season then you stop thinking about this season and you start thinking about next season. Honestly, I don't even get pumped for watching games right now. I am far more interested in the draft and who is on Colangelo's radar over the summer. The Raptors conceivably could have up to three new starters by next October and not just any starters but young, talented pieces to the core who are starting... And on top of that they could have a nice bench. For now, let the losses rack up for all I care. I just want to see them play hard until the final game.

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    We are 7 games away from half way, and I think our hardest part of the schedule is pretty well over with. Bargs will eventually be back in the line-up for the rest of the season. Perhaps we move Barbosa and/or Calderon making our team worse, but I don't foresee 12-44. Hopefully we stay under 20, and end up 7th from the bottom or less. Right now we are fifth last with a 8-18 record.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Losing to the Wizards may be helpful if there are tie-breakers toward the end of the season. Beat the good teams and lose to the bad teams. Build confidence and beat everyone else to the #1 OAP. If we get it, then we will have 2 #1 on this team. Oi.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I think Barbosa will be moved. As an asset it's now or never with him. They need to make a move.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Personally, I want to see the players that Casey puts out there battle each night but I am not exactly upset that the Raptors are in a position right now to have a legit chance at winning the #1 overall pick in the lottery. If they end up with a top five pick, when you consider that JV will be here next season and they'll have a good chunk of money to play with in the off-season then you stop thinking about this season and you start thinking about next season. Honestly, I don't even get pumped for watching games right now. I am far more interested in the draft and who is on Colangelo's radar over the summer. The Raptors conceivably could have up to three new starters by next October and not just any starters but young, talented pieces to the core who are starting... And on top of that they could have a nice bench. For now, let the losses rack up for all I care. I just want to see them play hard until the final game.
    I feel the same way about the draft. Constantly checking the different sites doing mock drafts to see whom they have pegged as the Raptors' pick this summer.

    I found your comment on having "a good chunk of money to play with in the off-season" interesting. Do you think the raps should pull the trigger and use their cap space this summer? All this losing has me wishing for a drastically different team next season, but at the same time I can't help but think we should wait and see what we have with JV and this years picks first. Bringing in veteran free agents to play along side such young players might be a bit premature.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I found your comment on having "a good chunk of money to play with in the off-season" interesting. Do you think the raps should pull the trigger and use their cap space this summer? All this losing has me wishing for a drastically different team next season, but at the same time I can't help but think we should wait and see what we have with JV and this years picks first. Bringing in veteran free agents to play along side such young players might be a bit premature.
    Yes, they should use every penny right to the cap. You need to realize that DeMar DeRozan and James Johnson will be up for contracts the following summer. Then add in two high lotto picks (JV plus the 2012 draftee) and then another first rounder next season and you're going to find that they won't have more cap space to play with again like they will this off-season. Use it or lose it. The time to act is this off-season. The Raptors obviously need a lot more talent and those two rookies aren't going to be enough. We know they need help on the wing and at PG no matter who they draft in June. Spend the money for crying out loud!

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yes, they should use every penny right to the cap. You need to realize that DeMar DeRozan and James Johnson will be up for contracts the following summer. Then add in two high lotto picks (JV plus the 2012 draftee) and then another first rounder next season and you're going to find that they won't have more cap space to play with again like they will this off-season. Use it or lose it. The time to act is this off-season. The Raptors obviously need a lot more talent and those two rookies aren't going to be enough. We know they need help on the wing and at PG no matter who they draft in June. Spend the money for crying out loud!
    Bingo. The qualifying offers have been increased in the new CBA so JJ and DD are going to count against the cap next summer for much more than their current rookie contract. There will be 2 lotto picks going in to their second year. Plus if they don't use up all their cap space this summer, they won't have access to the full MLE (3 years, $15M) they'll have to settle for the 'top up' contract of $2.5M.


    Anyways, Larry Coon can do a much better job of explaining it than me. From Larry Coon's FAQ:

    20. How do exceptions count against the cap? Does being under the cap always mean that a team has room to sign free agents? Do teams ever lose their exceptions?

    If a team is below the cap, then their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question numbers 30, 31, 32, 33). A team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

    So being under the cap does not necessarily mean a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $49.5 million, and a team has $43 million committed to salaries. They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and instead must use their exceptions.

    Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Then the year after DD and JJ get new deals Ed Davis is up for a new contract.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Then the year after DD and JJ get new deals Ed Davis is up for a new contract.
    True.

    This summer is the time for the Raptors to add salary via free agency or trades so they are just above the soft cap so they can take full advantage of the full MLE, bi-annual exception, and Bird Rights for players already on the roster.

    I dream of Rudy. Memphis 12-13 and 2 games back of the playoffs. fingers crossed..... sorry, off topic.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bingo. The qualifying offers have been increased in the new CBA so JJ and DD are going to count against the cap next summer for much more than their current rookie contract. There will be 2 lotto picks going in to their second year. Plus if they don't use up all their cap space this summer, they won't have access to the full MLE (3 years, $15M) they'll have to settle for the 'top up' contract of $2.5M.


    Anyways, Larry Coon can do a much better job of explaining it than me. From Larry Coon's FAQ:
    You wouldn't happen to have an estimate of how much cap space the Raptor's have going into the summer to spend do you?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You wouldn't happen to have an estimate of how much cap space the Raptor's have going into the summer to spend do you?
    According to HoopsHype.com:

    around $39M plus ~ $1.5M for Forbes which they don't include nor does it include JV's contract or 2012 lotto pick (both around $3M). So 2012 payroll is around $47M. That does not include Bayless' qualifying offer either.

    So that is 11 players (including Alabi and 2 picks) for around $47M.

    Soft cap is $58M.

    They'll have about $11M.

    If they amnestied Calderon they would have $21.5M. I would much rather they trade him though. You can find the trade I dream about here: http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...l=1#post112332

  14. #14
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    They're in at $39.5M without the qualifying offer to Bayless (around $4M), which won't be offered in my opinion. Now then, they drafted a player with the 5th overall pick in 2011 and right now they're in place to get another 5th if probabilities play out based on the current standings. So...

    $39.5M Starting Salary Expense
    + $5.6M Rookie signings x 2
    ___________________________
    $45.1M Total Salary Expense

    If the Cap is set at $58M then the Raptors would be sitting with roughly $13M to spend come free agency. If they were to cap dump Calderon or amnesty his contract that would be sitting in at around $23M in cap space.

    Edit: Matt beat me to it and raised a good point about Forbes. So it's actually $11.5M as is, $21.5M without Calderon in the picture.

    Ideally they move Calderon for a pick or a lesser contract in the off-season so that there is some value heading back this way. It's not often you see someone of his talents, his character, his health and his age getting dumped.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Ideally they move Calderon for a pick or a lesser contract in the off-season so that there is some value heading back this way. It's not often you see someone of his talents, his character, his health and his age getting dumped.
    It bothers me when posters propose an idea as "Ideally".

    I can imagine a scenario in which Calderon is extended for 2 or 3 years at far less money while a young successor learns the ropes.

    Is that a better scenario than the one you propose? Maybe, depending on the specific situation after Summer 2012.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    As long as the team plays hard and our young guys improve, I'm fine with losing. In fact, the longer Bargs is out the better at this point: with him in the line up this team is 500 and this way guys like Davis get out there more to learn. If Bargs stays out for another few weeks, this team will likely have a shot at winning the lottery. If he comes back, we may end up on a run.

    As far as cap space, unless there is a max guy we want, I don't think we amnesty Calderon. He is a great point guard and is the perfect guy to help young players get better with his ability to move the ball. Plus he will be willing to come off the bench in a role he plays very well if we do get a good point to start. As long as we can pay him less, say 5-6 mill a year, I think we keep him. Unless he wants to leave and play with a contender.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I dream of Rudy. Memphis 12-13 and 2 games back of the playoffs. fingers crossed..... sorry, off topic.
    Memphis is free-falling having lost 7 of their last 9. Hopefully they hit the panic button soon
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    It bothers me when posters propose an idea as "Ideally".

    I can imagine a scenario in which Calderon is extended for 2 or 3 years at far less money while a young successor learns the ropes.

    Is that a better scenario than the one you propose? Maybe, depending on the specific situation after Summer 2012.
    Sorry to be a bother but they have cap now and this is going to be a potent free agent class. If I have to pick between getting a impact player/potential star for $10M/yr while amnestying Calderon or keeping Calderon and letting him potentially walk to a contender later I'm going with the first option thank you.

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Memphis is free-falling having lost 7 of their last 9. Hopefully they hit the panic button soon
    So they thrive last year without Gay and crash & burn this year without the Zach attack? Hmmm... How much is Gay making again? Upwards of $20M/yr? Ugh.... I don't know.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote apollo wrote: View Post
    sorry to be a bother but they have cap now and this is going to be a potent free agent class. If i have to pick between getting a impact player/potential star for $10m/yr while amnestying calderon or keeping calderon and letting him potentially walk to a contender later i'm going with the first option thank you.



    So they thrive last year without gay and crash & burn this year without the zach attack? Hmmm... how much is gay making again?
    max

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Pass. Nice idea on the surface but that contract looks really bad on the back end.

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