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Thread: February 12 - Los Angeles Lakers

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I am sick and tired of shoot first point guards losing games for us. If Calderon is concerned about making everyone around him better, how does he score "30 points on 13-18 shooting (4-4 3pt), 6 assists, 2 rebs, 2 to?"

    Oh wait...Raptors not called Calderon were 2 for 17 in the first quarter? DeRozan was 2-13, and Barbosa was 4-11? So if either had been shooting career averages JC might have had another 3 assists. ...Well, okay then. I'll let it go this game. But he had better stop scoring so much.
    I'm assuming that is a jab at me given my frustrations with Bayless of late (especially after 111-108 WSH loss) and the quotation of part of my comment.

    A couple of things about the difference between this performance by Calderon and high scoring performances by Bayless (specifically the Washington game where I ripped him):

    1) Calderon was clearly feeling it going 13-18 whereas Bayless was 9-23
    2) Calderon still found guys having 6 assists when the majority of the team, specifically wings, shot below .500 excluding Kleiza who was 6-11. There was no one in this game who was on fire - except Calderon, of course. In the Washington game Bayless had just 3 assists and passed only when there was no other option despite having a guy having his best game of the season and was on fire in Kleiza who was 11-16 - and 11-14 before receiving shit passes from Bayless.
    3) Calderon played within the flow of this game. He didn't force any shots. Bayless versus Washington forced everything - even shots he hit were not 'good' shots. There is a big difference here.


    No doubt today's game is the exception and not the norm. It is nice to see Jose recognizes when his teammates are off and he needs to step up within the flow of the game.

  2. #102
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Hey, not directed at you Matt. You tend to be level headed. More a jab at JC haters. (I use the word haters in a strictly informal and low key way).

    Calderon did tonight what he does well most nights, as you say, played within the flow of the game. I would challenge most people calling for a JC trade to discuss where the Raptors would have been tonight with another option at PG. Whether a young draftee, or another PG available through trade. JC is really one of a very small number who could do this. A lot of Calderons lack over the years has been the lack of people who can do anything with the passes he gives them. When it seems like he is dribbling and wasting time, it has been that no one was in position to get off a shot, as often as not. He doesn't pass into bad situations. Different then Bayless who will throw it to anyone when he is in trouble. (Being a little harsh here to make a point, but we have all seen Bayless do this and almost never see Calderon do it).

    I was being facetious in my post. Give Calderon the respect he deserves and seriously think about where you will put the franchise by trading him away. PG is one of the foundations of every good team.

  3. #103
    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm assuming that is a jab at me given my frustrations with Bayless of late (especially after 111-108 WSH loss) and the quotation of part of my comment.

    A couple of things about the difference between this performance by Calderon and high scoring performances by Bayless (specifically the Washington game where I ripped him):

    1) Calderon was clearly feeling it going 13-18 whereas Bayless was 9-23
    2) Calderon still found guys having 6 assists when the majority of the team, specifically wings, shot below .500 excluding Kleiza who was 6-11. There was no one in this game who was on fire - except Calderon, of course. In the Washington game Bayless had just 3 assists and passed only when there was no other option despite having a guy having his best game of the season and was on fire in Kleiza who was 11-16 - and 11-14 before receiving shit passes from Bayless.
    3) Calderon played within the flow of this game. He didn't force any shots. Bayless versus Washington forced everything - even shots he hit were not 'good' shots. There is a big difference here.

    No doubt today's game is the exception and not the norm. It is nice to see Jose recognizes when his teammates are off and he needs to step up within the flow of the game.

    I totally agree with you Matt. There is absolutely no reason to compare Bayless and Calderon. Claderon is by far superior, and actually plays his position the way it's supposed to be played. He is a pass first point guard, but when he is needed to carry some offensive load he can. He doesn't force his game and he is not concerned about his numbers, he's looking out for the teams best interest. If he has to score he will, it's all about winning.

    Bayless also cares about winning, but I think he cares about himself more than anyone else. How many times has he wasted clock trying to get his own shot and then passes it off when the shot clock is down and someone has to chuck it up? He has total tunnel vision and does not have good fundamentals. How many times do they mention don't leave your feet when you are making a pass? Bayless just isn't a point guard and I really hope he isn't signed in the offseason.

    The best stat that proves Calderon is by far the better point guard is their assist to turnover ratio:

    Calderon 4.56
    Bayless 1.75

    enough said

  4. #104
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Hey, not directed at you Matt. You tend to be level headed. More a jab at JC haters. (I use the word haters in a strictly informal and low key way).

    Calderon did tonight what he does well most nights, as you say, played within the flow of the game. I would challenge most people calling for a JC trade to discuss where the Raptors would have been tonight with another option at PG. Whether a young draftee, or another PG available through trade. JC is really one of a very small number who could do this. A lot of Calderons lack over the years has been the lack of people who can do anything with the passes he gives them. When it seems like he is dribbling and wasting time, it has been that no one was in position to get off a shot, as often as not. He doesn't pass into bad situations. Different then Bayless who will throw it to anyone when he is in trouble. (Being a little harsh here to make a point, but we have all seen Bayless do this and almost never see Calderon do it).

    I was being facetious in my post. Give Calderon the respect he deserves and seriously think about where you will put the franchise by trading him away. PG is one of the foundations of every good team.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    If I knew Jose would be relatively injury free (like Steve Nash, for example, who has averaged around 77 games per season since 2001-2002) then I would be all over keeping him in Toronto - especially when more talented players fill out the roster. Unfortunately I can't say that confidently given his history and insistence on playing with his national team during the summer.

    Continuing with the Jose love, Kobe says this:

    “You’re impressed when you don’t expect a player to have games like that,” Bryant said. “I fully expect that from him. He’s a great player. He’s always been one of my favourite point guards.”

    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ngeles-lakers/

  5. #105
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If I knew Jose would be relatively injury free (like Steve Nash, for example, who has averaged around 77 games per season since 2001-2002) then I would be all over keeping him in Toronto - especially when more talented players fill out the roster. Unfortunately I can't say that confidently given his history and insistence on playing with his national team during the summer.
    For the Record:
    Jose has averaged 72 games per season, for his career.
    And he hasn't missed a single Start so far this season.


    Love that Quote from Kobe.
    In Masai we Trust.

  6. #106
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    For the Record:
    Jose has averaged 72 games per season, for his career.
    And he hasn't missed a single Start so far this season.


    Love that Quote from Kobe.
    True but the last 3 years he has only played 68 games each season and in many of the games he has played he was visibly not near his best.

    Something to consider with Jose, and again if he could stay healthy I'd love to keep him on Toronto, is the McKechnie effect. McKechnie is one of the best trainers in the world. Maybe he puts Jose on a program that makes his groin and hamstring injuries a problem of the past? I'm not sure. But Colangelo, who has a love of PG's, has been talking about getting a PG of the future and he has made it clear it is not Jose.

    I agree that is a great quote from Kobe. He rarely says anything sincere about anyone.

    I would love to see a Nash and Kabongo pairing. I still think it is a possibility as crazy as some might think it to be.

  7. #107
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Calderon certainly had a good audition for Lakers brass:

    30 points on 13-18 shooting (4-4 3pt), 6 assists, 2 rebs, 2 to.
    Yes, let's trade Jose Calderon for shitty young point guards like Goudelock and Morris, and a late draft pick who will likely never become a starter!

    I would not be surprised if Calderon has more years left to play than Goudelock and Morris combined.

  8. #108
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    True but the last 3 years he has only played 68 games each season and in many of the games he has played he was visibly not near his best.
    The lockout really worked for him. But it's not just playing international games, it's the NBA (the money) that insists on playing 82 games (without counting play-offs). 82! and that with all the travelling (and I don't mean the kind of travelling Nowitzki does all the time during games). 82! games!

    Nevertheless, last year Jose played 68 games, but couldn't he play at the end of the year or were they just resting their players for better chances in the draft lottery? (It's not a rhetorical question, as I really don't know about this, but I'm wondering...)

  9. #109
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Yes, let's trade Jose Calderon for shitty young point guards like Goudelock and Morris, and a late draft pick who will likely never become a starter!

    I would not be surprised if Calderon has more years left to play than Goudelock and Morris combined.
    Sounds good to me. Draft Kabongo with the late pick and give Nash a 3 year, $30M contract. I'm in.

  10. #110
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Draft Kabongo with the late pick and give Nash a 3 year, $30M contract. I'm in.
    I don't know if this was sarcasm to match that of Hugs initial post, but I'm going to assume it is not.. Lol

    So you are confident that Nash will be Healthy and Servicable until the Ripe age of 41; and yet you have no faith that Jose will be Healthy and Servicable at the Age of 32?
    In Masai we Trust.

  11. #111
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    i'd much rather keep Jose, Trade bayless and barbosa for a pick and draft kabongo. Then sign a backup SG to fill the gap for barbosa. We're all set, we got our pg, Sf(with our pick) and our Center(JV). Imagine this starting lineup:

    Jose/Myck
    DeMar
    Barnes/Miller/MKG
    Bargs
    JV

    that is too good

  12. #112
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I don't know if this was sarcasm to match that of Hugs initial post, but I'm going to assume it is not.. Lol

    So you are confident that Nash will be Healthy and Servicable until the Ripe age of 41; and yet you have no faith that Jose will be Healthy and Servicable at the Age of 32?
    http://stacktv.stack.com/Basketball/...-Training.html

    Yes. I have more confidence in Steve Nash over the next 3 years than I do for Jose Calderon.

    Steve will be doing crazy sh!t like the videos in the above link whereas Jose will be playing ball against top Olympic competition on his gimp hammy and groin coming off a 66 game season done in 4 months.

  13. #113
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    http://stacktv.stack.com/Basketball/...-Training.html

    Yes. I have more confidence in Steve Nash over the next 3 years than I do for Jose Calderon.

    Steve will be doing crazy sh!t like the videos in the above link whereas Jose will be playing ball against top Olympic competition on his gimp hammy and groin coming off a 66 game season done in 4 months.
    I would assume that his minutes will be down quite a bit internationally after this year in favor of Rubio. Even if he will start, which is not unlikely, his minutes will probably be in the low twenties a game. Regardless I think that playing with Spain has helped Calderon's game a lot over the years as it's a much stronger and fundamentally better team than the Raptors (hell, he's playing with the 2 Gasol's, Ibaka and Navarro, that's a NBA championship team right there).

  14. #114
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The Lakers have been extremely active in gauging the trade marketplace, mainly because of the $8.9 million Traded Player Exception the team holds from the Lamar Odom deal with Dallas.

    League sources say the Lakers are reluctant to subtract from their roster, especially if it involved core pieces like Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol. Sources say the Lakers’ goal seems to be to try and pry lose a solid player either at point guard or at small forward using their exception.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-for...medium=twitter
    The TPE can't get Calderon but it could get Hinrich who could then be flipped for Calderon..... just saying.

  15. #115
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Calderon IMO is way to inconsistent for my liking. You never know which Jose will show up. He had 3 points and 4 assists with 3 turnovers against Washington of all teams this year. I mean he can play but he can also stink up the joint. But Jose is safe and reliable. He does not have an ego, is a good locker room guy, and makes others around him better - which is an essential quality on a team full of young pups.

    Going forward, it would be nice to have Jose coming off the bench. Not because he can be used to mentor our next PG of the future, but because Jose would be willing to take that role. I really don't think Jose would make a good mentor at all - as we're all seeing the play making skills of our other guard, and it doesn't seem like Jose has made much of a difference there.

    In theory it would be great to find a PG for the future like Kabongo; but in all likelihood we'll be using Jose as our primary PG until that time comes. I think the rebuilding process needs to go a bit slower than people predict. We concentrate on our wing issue first, and then look at the PG situation in 2013 or even 2014. I love creating that home run trade that nets us guys like Jennings or another lottery pick, but the realist in me is thinking we're not getting another PG for awhile.

    Nash is a big time pipe dream. If Nash becomes a FA he'll stay with Phoenix. If Phoenix wants to let him go, it will be this year so that they can get draft picks and young talent to build on for the future. The price might be too high for us especially since we are rebuilding as well.

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    I'm still trying to find out why fans want Calderon gone so badly, especially since there's no one to really replace the guy. No team is going to give you a real sweetheart deal, just contenders with very late first rounders and spare parts on their roster.

    Jennings won't come cheap and Kabongo unless he's promised that he'd be picked in the lotto would be a fool to enter the draft (and I can't see him being the draft unless he does get that promise)

  17. #117
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The TPE can't get Calderon but it could get Hinrich who could then be flipped for Calderon..... just saying.
    Why the Lakers though, Matt? All this to make Cap Room for Steve Nash?? haha

    I, for one, hope that IF we do trade Calderon, we get MUCH more than a TPE and a Draft Pick.


    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I'm still trying to find out why fans want Calderon gone so badly, especially since there's no one to really replace the guy. No team is going to give you a real sweetheart deal, just contenders with very late first rounders and spare parts on their roster.
    I don't get it either Mango.

    Why not see his good game and good thing for US. Not a good thing for someone else.
    In Masai we Trust.

  18. #118
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Oh, and Nash - there's no way that guy is gonna play with us next season. He lives in NY in the off-season and would rather sign there.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I'm still trying to find out why fans want Calderon gone so badly, especially since there's no one to really replace the guy. No team is going to give you a real sweetheart deal, just contenders with very late first rounders and spare parts on their roster.

    Jennings won't come cheap and Kabongo unless he's promised that he'd be picked in the lotto would be a fool to enter the draft (and I can't see him being the draft unless he does get that promise)
    I think it's on the assumption that this team won't be ready to "compete" for another 2-5 years. And in terms of sustainability, it's in the team's best interest to find a PG who will be in his prime during these years, not the twilight of his career. I don't know if people want Calderon gone per se, but instead acknowledge the fact that he's not our long-term answer.

    What to do with him is anyone's guess, whether you trade him, let his contract expire, or re-sign him as a backup PG.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  20. #120
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Oh, and Nash - there's no way that guy is gonna play with us next season. He lives in NY in the off-season and would rather sign there.
    I didn't realize you and Steve were tight.

    NY will only have the MLE to offer.

    There is also the expression, "Don't sh!t in your own nest." He might not wish to play in his nest.

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