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Thread: Jeremy Lin: evidence that Raps will never win anything

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default Jeremy Lin: evidence that Raps will never win anything

    I used to think the league would use its officials to:
    - help teams win home games
    - help big market teams win
    - help promote stars
    ... now I am sure of it.

    Is NBA on court play fixed? not really it is not the WWE. But it is obvious that it uses officials to manipulate the outcome of games and the promotion of stars.

    The league is against great defensive players (Amir Johnson and James Johnson get the cheapest foul calls).
    The foul count last night was Toronto->28 Newyork->18 terrible rhythm interrupting calls in the 2nd half took all the mojo out of Toronto's great play.

    consider this excerpt from Blowing the Whistle, by Tim Donaghy.
    Some players, even very good ones, were targeted by referees and the league because they were too talented for their own good. Raja Bell, formerly of the Phoenix Suns and now a member of the Charlotte Bobcats, was one of those players. A defensive specialist throughout his career, Bell had a reputation for being a "star stopper." His defensive skills were so razor sharp that he could shut down a superstar, or at least make him work for his points. Kobe Bryant was often frustrated by Bell's tenacity on defense. Let's face it, no one completely shuts down a player of Kobe's caliber, but Bell could frustrate Kobe, take him out of his game, and interrupt his rhythm.
    http://deadspin.com/5392067/excerpts...nt-you-to-read
    Jeremy Lin is a great kid and an inspirational story but is it really a co-incidence that in year without Yao Ming that suddenly an unknown Asian kid has ridden to immediate stardom? and in such a short time?

    Its great for the league - JLin is everywhere
    heck its even great for MLSE they sold 20,096 seats last night.

    If that is going on in the game I shudder to think about what is going on behind closed doors, in draft lotteries... do we even get to see the lottery now?

    Toronto never gets stars and when it does they go for a nothing in return
    Vince Carter for Alonzo Mourning Eric Williams and Joey Graham...?
    Tracey McGrady for???
    Damon Stoudamire for??
    Roy Hibbert for???

    Connect the dots people:
    -> Kevin McHale life time Celtic
    -> Goes to GM Twolves
    -> trades away the best player in the league to...?

    Why would the league want Toronto as a have not? it is after all the 4th biggest market and if you are considering it Canadas team - maybe the 2nd biggest market. so why?
    ANSWER: American TV. They dont like Canada and neither do their sponsors many of who don't sell to Canadian Consumers (IE Direct TV)

    People will flame this post as being conspiracy filled - go ahead but until you see Toronto do anything but feed other teams talent and wins its hard to argue that something don't smell funny.

    After last night 4th quarter I am reminded to just enjoy the game for what it is but understand that 2nd round play will be few and far between and likely the apex of any generation of Raptor Ball... if your lucky.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    There's no conspiracy against the Raptors.

    If you want a conspiracy look at the Bobcats. They've lost 15 in a row, and they're owned by the Greatest player EVER.
    If there was ever a conspiracy to make teams 'better', it would be working in favour of the Bobcats right now.
    Or how about Washington, where they were supposedly 'given' John Wall because of all the Arenas BS ... didn't do much did it?

    Conspiracy Theories are fun, but they're also easy. It's alot harder to just admit that this team just isn't very good. :P haha


    Not to mention, we are NOT the only team to have lost a few SuperStars.
    (Hibbert is NOT a SuperStar. Stoudemire was NOT a SuperStar.)
    It happens.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Toronto never gets stars and when it does they go for a nothing in return
    Vince Carter for Alonzo Mourning Eric Williams and Joey Graham...?
    Tracey McGrady for???
    Damon Stoudamire for??
    Roy Hibbert for???
    • The league didn't trade Vince Carter away for peanuts, Rob Babcock did that. He buckled under the pressure.
    • T-Mac wanted out of Toronto because he felt misused/slighted by the coaching staff. He felt like he would always be in the shadow of Carter and that he wasn't appreciated. He left because of what the coaches and management did.
    • Mighty Mouse mentioned his regrets later about leaving town. His career was never the same. He left very early on in the organization's life. The Raptors had a bunch of non-basketball people with high influence and Isiah Thomas couldn't hide that. You put a couple septic tank drainers in the kitchen and I'm sorry but you get shit soup.
    • Roy Hibbert? Are you kidding me? For one it was a later round draft pick, late teens, and for two the Raptors drafted him at the Pacers' request to facilitate a trade. You have absolutely no idea if he would have been the Raptors' choice had the trade not been agreed on. My money would be on him not being drafted by the Raptors given they had Bosh and Bargnani and there were other nice options. You're really grasping here. Wow...


    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    People will flame this post as being conspiracy filled - go ahead but until you see Toronto do anything but feed other teams talent and wins its hard to argue that something don't smell funny.
    Sorry but I'm not putting on the tinfoil hat Charlz.

    Excellent article you referenced by the way. I'm still reading it in pieces when I get time.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    There's no conspiracy against the Raptors.

    If you want a conspiracy look at the Bobcats. They've lost 15 in a row, and they're owned by the Greatest player EVER.
    If there was ever a conspiracy to make teams 'better', it would be working in favour of the Bobcats right now.
    Or how about Washington, where they were supposedly 'given' John Wall because of all the Arenas BS ... didn't do much did it?

    Conspiracy Theories are fun, but they're also easy. It's alot harder to just admit that this team just isn't very good. :P haha


    Not to mention, we are NOT the only team to have lost a few SuperStars.
    (Hibbert is NOT a SuperStar. Stoudemire was NOT a SuperStar.)
    It happens.
    it is not a conspiracy agaist Raptors per-say the what I am trying to say is you will have a much greater chance of succeeding if the league wants you to - and a much tougher time if it is not in the best interests of the league...

    It is very much in the leagues best interest for a wonderful humble Asian kid from NY to rise to stardom.... and so you can see officials 'helping him'... I am a JLin fan too I heard him do a couple interviews and he is the embodiment of a great humble team player.
    Last edited by charlz; Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 08:38 AM.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Charlz, what you've missed in your theory is the fact that the league has been expanding the game globally. They don't just care about America, they're looking past that. Also what you miss is that the Raptors are in a 35 million person market. A market that is far more financially stable than any American market. The fact that Canada has a team at all defies your theory.

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    This same logic could be applied to 90% of small market teams in every major professional sport in North America. Somehow I think it's got more to do with economics.

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    I don't believe that there is a league wide conspiracy but I do believe that refs call games differently against the Raps. And I do believe there is an ethnocentric bias behind it. How many times this year have we seen fouls being called differently on the opposite ends of the floor. So much so that our commentators, who never say anything, have started speaking up. Jack Armstrong, who always seems to try to avoid any controversy whatsoever, is starting to talk about it. THere was a game last month where he actually said it seemed like the refs had decided who was supposed to win. It was a split second after a ridiculously bad call while the Raps were making a run. He said it kind of under his breath, but there was no mistaking his intent.

    I've been a Raptor fan since day one. I was there when we beat MJ and arguably the best basketball team of the modern era. When they traded Vince I felt like I'd been kicked in the nuts and the pain didn't go away for days. All of that and I'm still thinking of avoiding Raptors games. I've watched the least amount of games this year than I ever have. Still on the forums. Still watching Val tear it up in Europe and excited by what the next few years could bring...but will this team be allowed to be as good as it actually is? In razor thin margins of error will the calls fall fairly on both sides when the games matter? I don't think so. My dogs and my wife are starting to worry about me yelling at the tv. I'm not convinced I couldn't have a total coronary if it was a really important game and it happened...oh well. There's my rant.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, it's been noted (by many teams) that officiating has been well below standards this season. I'm sure the Raptors aren't the only team complaining. No conspiracy here.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    @Gman

    I felt my nuts hurt when Wince decided to stop playing for this team (on the court) to force his departure....as vile an act in team sports and total disdain for his team mates and the fans. And it was a slow dull ache over many weeks. I still feel it every time he is discussed in any "positive" sense. His innate talent notwithstanding (he was born with it) his character leaves much to be desired.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Gman wrote: View Post
    I don't believe that there is a league wide conspiracy but I do believe that refs call games differently against the Raps. And I do believe there is an ethnocentric bias behind it. How many times this year have we seen fouls being called differently on the opposite ends of the floor. .
    well said - it is not a conspiracy (I hate that word)... derozen gets clobbered no call - if you bristle by kobe rose or now Lin you are going to get called.

    The league is in the business of making money. Don't kid yourself.

    TV money big market money - to think they dont exert their influence through officials and GM's is naive.


    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    This same logic could be applied to 90% of small market teams in every major professional sport in North America. Somehow I think it's got more to do with economics.
    maybe not 90% but only like 8 teams have won and nba championship since
    http://www.nba.com/history/finals/champions.html prior to Dallas winning last year.

    Chicago - Boston - LA Lakers - Detroit -- those 4 teams have won like 90% of all the championships - what does it say?

    When you see center after center landing in LA you know most of the teams are just along to provide fodder for the eventual winner. Toronto is such a team.
    Last edited by charlz; Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 11:01 AM.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I don't think there is a conspiracy, but I do think the quality of officiating in the league is quite low. I'm not an expert, but I am someone who did a few years of high school and teen reffing. Obviously the quality is different. Obviously it's hard to judge the refs in the NBA because of how big and fast the players are. They do however make horrible calls frequently on the biggest basketball stage in the world. They make mistakes that if I made them when I was reffing teens, my supervisors would have me doing lowest age and skill level for...well....maybe forever. Simple things like not watching their own parts of the court, not watching the lines, not counting properly, etc.....

    Take a play from last night. Now I don't remember the specifics of the play except for the whistle, but it was on our defensive end. We got a stop and off the rebound, the ball was knocked out of bounds by the Knicks, I think over Amir, and they didn't call a foul which was fine. The ref under the basket who was practically right in front of the play, called it Toronto ball, whether this was because NY touched it or cheaply fouled us (but he didn't want to call a weak foul, so he gave us possession). The ref at the back of that play...ALL the way up almost at halfcourt, suddenly runs in and almost changes the call. This should never happen. It often does in the NBA. And this wasn't along the sideline, it was on the baseline. There is no way the ref at the back could have seen the call better than the closer one. Either he doesn't trust his partner, or he wants to make a call to needlessly influence the game....

    Another example from last year. I don't remember who Orlando is playing, but it was probably a NBA on TNT game or something nationally televised. There was a play where Arenas was clearly out of bounds trying to save a ball, and he was right beside the ref. He 'saved' it by throwing it to Howard for an alley-oop dunk....and the ref WAS RIGHT BESIDE ARENAS. Again, this is the ref at the back of the play, playing near halfcourt and standing at the sideline during the play. When Arenas passed it you didn't even have to look at his feet to know he was out of bounds. The ref was not looking at Arenas though and just watched the pass go from him to Howard....The play was not called back (you can't do that shit) and the refs could not do anything about the mistake....Why was the ref not looking at the play happening beside him? Who knows....but again...that kind of mistake was uncommon among the good refs at the level I worked at (many of whom did CIS and some who even have done FIBA games). If you made that mistake, you were stuck in crap games for a long time til you watched the right spots of the floor.

    Another example from last year, and brought to my mind because of the play the other night. Now that ref did call 5 seconds. And it was 5 seconds (if he didn't hear Casey). But last year I distinctly remember a similar play where one was called on Kleiza. On the ref's own count (you can always see it as they use an arm to count), he had not reached 5 before he blew the whistle....he was at like 4 and a half....and he blew the whistle. I saw the same play with 2 completely different teams later in the season.

    Basically I am saying that the refs in the NBA are terrible. I'm not sure how much of this has to do with poor training, and I'm not sure how much of it is about refs bias, and there are definitely refs who seem irrationally for or against certain players/teams/styles of play. I think the point about defensive players was a fair one by charlz, because even though JJ was in foul trouble for us, Chandler was also in foul trouble for them. Most of the fouls seemed like fair calls, but some were pretty soft, and the timing was generally very bad (maybe suspicious?) in their 2nd half fouls. I don't think any of this has to do with the league though. I think the refs have their own issues. They seem to want to be 'in' on the action too much in the NBA. They want to make the big call, or the popular call ( I can think of at least 2 calls for Lin where he looked awkward but didn't get touched). They want to form relationships with the players, and it feels like they use their officiating to do this. Basically too many of their intentions feel corrupt.

    I also want to emphasize how we feel is bias too, because Toronto has gotten pretty subpar treatment from officials, especially on our homecourt. However you notice this across the league if you get to watch many games. Teams that aren't "sexy" (=big stars or big markets) seem to always be out of favor with refs. Milwaukee, Sacramento, Charlotte, Detroit, Golden State...many teams all get crapped on. And even in mid-range teams, if they play a hotter one, they get screwed...like Philly, or Indiana, or Minnesota, Phoenix, Utah....It's a very very unfortunate reality in the way the game is called. I also want to so there are still some good refs out there, but when it's a 3-man crew for 30 teams x 82 games....well I just hope the guys who miss obvious out of bounds, 5 second calls or don't even watch the right part of the floor don't get to do playoff games.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Chicago - Boston - LA Lakers - Detroit -- those 4 teams have won like 90% of all the championships - what does it say?
    It says that the Bulls had Jordan, the Lakers had Magic, the Celtics had Bird. That's the way the NBA works. You have the best player, you win titles. Frankly, the last few years has been the most competitive the NBA has been since the 70s. Miami, SA, LA, Boston, Detroit, Dalllas have all won title in the last 10 years. That number of winners in a decade hasn't happened since the 70s. Also, winning a title doesn't tell the whole story. There have been great teams over the last 30 years that didn't win titles that should have: Jazz (Malone/Stockton), Seattle (Payton & Co.), Phoenix (Nash teams), Knicks (Ewing), Pacers (Millertime).

    Also, enough with the excuses about why Toronto is bad. Toronto is bad right now because the franchise has been horribly mismanaged for the last 10 years. It's got nothing to do with NBA conspiracies and everything to do with the fact that the GMs in this town have made massive mistakes over the last decade, which have created the crapfest before you now. Ownership gets its share of the blame for the Babcock hire (just awful) and, in my view, the utterly wrong-headed Colangelo extension. But, in any case, stop making excuses for this terrible team.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Jeremy Lin is a great kid and an inspirational story but is it really a co-incidence that in year without Yao Ming that suddenly an unknown Asian kid has ridden to immediate stardom? and in such a short time?
    Are you serious? You think that biased refereeing is a reason for this kid's rise?

    He is phenomenal. In the 6 games he has played large minutes for the Knicks they are undefeated. He has scored more than 20 points in all of those games and is averaging 8.5 assists. Adding to that he is playing in the largest market in the NBA and is basically making them relevant when guys like Carmello and Amare couldn't.

    You think that this is some conspiracy by the NBA? Dude, the refs can't make a guy that good. You don't get assists because the refs are making calls. You don't hit game winning threes with 0.5 seconds left because the league wants you to be a star. You do those things because you're amazing.

    Is it awesome for the league that Lin is of Asian decent? Does it make it a bigger story in the media? Yes it certainly does, especially since there are so few Asian stars in the NBA, but the fact is what this guy is doing is amazing and no amount of NBA fixing could have set this up.

    There is no conspiracy. This is simply one of the best stories the NBA has had for the last decade and it is being treated as such.

    That said, the ref's in the NBA are terrible. This idea that good teams get more "respect calls" and bad teams have to develop a reputation is ridiculous. Call the game fairly, a foul is a foul, do your job. It's not complicated.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    All I wanna know is:

    1. Why did those refs make Jose play off Lin so far on that last play?
    2. How did they make that shot go in the basket? I thought I saw David Blaine and Criss Angel in the crowd but I didn't think they were there to disappear and guide that ball in the net.

    3. I can't believe you, Charlz, are thinking this kids ridiculous play as of late has to do with the league having the refs help him out because he's of Asian decent and Yao no longer plays.

    Once we get a team with true talent your theories will be tossed right out the window. The Raps shit the bed in the last 4 minutes and let the Knicks win.

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    I didn't really see any horrible calls last night. The Barbosa out of bounds play was a bad call... but so were some of the foul calls on Chandler. Every time Lin went to the line it was a legit foul. It actually is possible for a team to foul more than another team.

    I agree some of the refs in this league do blow. The star treatment calls are real and are absolutely bullshit. This is the most disappointing thing about the NBA, and is totally unethical. It's been around since I have been a fan for over 20 years, I doubt it's going to change.

    That is the only area that the league is tampering with it's product. IMO

    I doubt it tampers with the lottery, and it has nothing to do with where players are signing or getting traded. If anything I think there is way to much recruitment between players, but that is impossible to stop.

    The reason why the Raptors have not been successful has everything to do with Management.

    The Vince Carter trade was the shittiest trade ever! I think if there was an actual owner like Cuban, Jordan, or even the NBA (Hornets), that trade would have been vetoed.

    The Hibbert trade wasn't a horrible trade at the time, he was a 17th pick by the Pacers... technically not by Toronto. Who knows who we would have picked. O'Neal was a great player before his injuries, better than Ford (who also had an injury history), and we threw in a pick for the difference in talent. It didn't work out. We got Shawn Marion in return for O'Neal and we let him walk. Now we have a hole at our 3 spot.

    T-Mac left because he wanted to be the star. Some Americans don't want to live in Canada, it sucks but it's not something we can change.

    We have gone through way to many coaches! We have gone from hard nosed coaches (O'Neil, Mitchell) to player friendly coaches (Wilkens, Triano), and really haven't built a solid identity.

    We have made poor draft choices. The building through the draft isn't 100% effective but proper scouting helps take away some of the unknown.

    Due to our shitty management in the past we have built a culture of losing, which in turn has made the team a less desirable destination for free agents.

    I think we are on an upward trend, but we have to continue investing in this teams future. If the Raps really want to be great and stay great they have to invest money. Go out and hire one of the best shooting coaches to work with DeMar, Ed and Amir. Hire Ewing (I realize he wants to be more than a big man coach), Olijuwan, or one of the best big man coaches to work with Jonas. Hire the best scouts in the game. These kind of investments do not go against the cap, and is worth every penny. The best example of this is how much Cuban has spent on the Mavs. They have the best of the best, and he has totally turned that franchise around. We spent money on a great conditioning guy, now we have to build on that.

    With our core group, this years draft pic, Val and the cap room we should have a great future...and stop blaming everything but the organization itself for lack luster performances.


    As for the 5 second call the other night. Butler fucked up, Casey did call a TO in time, and he wasn't heard. It was a missed call. I think in that situation you do what the NFL coaches do and get the ref to stand beside you in important situations and get ready to call a timeout or make yourself noticeable. It wasn't Casey's fault, but you can limit the probability of a mistake happening.
    Last edited by saints91; Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 01:52 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    I think in that situation you do what the NFL coaches do and get the ref to stand beside you in important situations and get ready to call a timeout or make yourself noticeable. It wasn't Casey's fault, but you can limit the probability of a mistake happening.
    Good idea, but I don't think it works logistically. Casey can't step past the scorer's table, and the closest ref is standing past half court.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    probably wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that, much like the overall poor play we're seeing due to the compressed schedule, officials are working games under that same schedule. the league didn't go out & hire a bunch of extra refs to compensate, so those refs are working way more games in a much tighter turnaround...while also travelling & living out of a suitcase (though, i'm guessing, they aren't flying charter...1st class, but it's still dealing with the same airport travel bullshit that joe public does).

    so while i agree that refs do make bad calls, and there are certainly times when it seems to be purposeful, we remember them mainly (or only) because they negatively affected the raptors. next game, take note of all the calls, not just the ones that go against the raps, and what you'll find is that refs fuck up for/against both teams on an near equivalent level.
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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Good idea, but I don't think it works logistically. Casey can't step past the scorer's table, and the closest ref is standing past half court.
    If he can't be right beside them, he can at least go and talk to them after the TO. It's more of a progressive attitude to hinder this kind of thing happening again. Anything to get noticed in those situations.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    If he can't be right beside them, he can at least go and talk to them after the TO. It's more of a progressive attitude to hinder this kind of thing happening again. Anything to get noticed in those situations.
    You're right, but at the end of the day, it was still Butler's fault. He shouldn't need Casey to bail him out. The inbounder should ALWAYS be counting in his head, and asking for time at the 4 second mark. Always.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    Butler even said he asked Foster to count out loud to help him and Butler still fucked up. I'm not blaming Casey at all, it's just a learning experience and some ideas to help.

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