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  • #31
    Yup, I like these ideas (using the Martin and Harris examples). Now, how do we ensure Colangelo reads this thread???

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    • #32
      Example #3

      Here's another example:

      Andris Biedrins, 1st rounder(top ten protected) for Solomon Alabi(team option picked up)

      Biedrins used to be thought of in a similar way to how people look at Marc Gasol. That being a young, talented center who can fill up the stats sheet. "The sky's the limit." Three seasons ago Biedrins became plagued with injuries and somewhere along the line a flag was raised about his defense. It's gotten so bad that the Warrior went out this fall and rented Kwame Brown for $7M in desperation to shore up their interior defense. It's safe to say Biedrins has lost the confidence of management in Golden State and he's probably not a long term option for them anymore. They don't have the staff to turn his career around but the Raptors may and for a one year rental its worth the shot and here's why. Biedrins is one of the best rebounders in the league, he's a legit center in size and stature and he has the tools to be a good defender. Like Bargnani, he's been misguided by spotty coaching for a lot of his career when it comes to defense. Should Biedrin regain his health, Dwayne Casey might be the perfect coach to help him turn it around. If that were to happen you would be looking at a solid starter next season while JV becomes acclimated to North America and the NBA game. Once that happens the Raptors would have a reserve big man who could come in and give them David Lee-esque Knicks 6th man era production. That would be huge for this team. Not only that but they probably also get another 1st rounder in 2013 as the Warrior are good enough now before upgrades to stay out of the bottom ten. Speaking of the Warrior, dumping Biedrins would lower their cap number to roughly $37M, that's $21M below a hypothetical $58M cap. What that does is allow them to take yet another run at a high profile FA center. This years' lineup features Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Roy Hibbert and Brook Lopez. Depending on which center they may land(Brook Lopez seems the most attainable) they would have enough to take a shot at one of the high profile forwards as well such as Nic Batum, Wilson Chandler, Gerald Wallace, Ryan Anderson, Kris Humphries and Michael Beasely. So you see, the Warriors could potentially take a giant leap forward by dumping Biedrins and the price of a 1st rounder, which would probably be late teens as a worst case scenario should things go as planned, would be a great move.

      At the end of the 2013 season the Raptors would clear $19.5M between Calderon and Biedrins. That might allow them to be players next summer but it certainly would allow them to be big time players next trade deadline with two big expiring contracts as chips.

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      • #33
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        Here's another example:

        Andris Biedrins, 1st rounder(top ten protected) for Solomon Alabi(team option picked up)

        Biedrins used to be thought of in a similar way to how people look at Marc Gasol. That being a young, talented center who can fill up the stats sheet. "The sky's the limit." Three seasons ago Biedrins became plagued with injuries and somewhere along the line a flag was raised about his defense. It's gotten so bad that the Warrior went out this fall and rented Kwame Brown for $7M in desperation to shore up their interior defense. It's safe to say Biedrins has lost the confidence of management in Golden State and he's probably not a long term option for them anymore. They don't have the staff to turn his career around but the Raptors may and for a one year rental its worth the shot and here's why. Biedrins is one of the best rebounders in the league, he's a legit center in size and stature and he has the tools to be a good defender. Like Bargnani, he's been misguided by spotty coaching for a lot of his career when it comes to defense. Should Biedrin regain his health, Dwayne Casey might be the perfect coach to help him turn it around. If that were to happen you would be looking at a solid starter next season while JV becomes acclimated to North America and the NBA game. Once that happens the Raptors would have a reserve big man who could come in and give them David Lee-esque Knicks 6th man era production. That would be huge for this team. Not only that but they probably also get another 1st rounder in 2013 as the Warrior are good enough now before upgrades to stay out of the bottom ten. Speaking of the Warrior, dumping Biedrins would lower their cap number to roughly $37M, that's $21M below a hypothetical $58M cap. What that does is allow them to take yet another run at a high profile FA center. This years' lineup features Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Roy Hibbert and Brook Lopez. Depending on which center they may land(Brook Lopez seems the most attainable) they would have enough to take a shot at one of the high profile forwards as well such as Nic Batum, Wilson Chandler, Gerald Wallace, Ryan Anderson, Kris Humphries and Michael Beasely. So you see, the Warriors could potentially take a giant leap forward by dumping Biedrins and the price of a 1st rounder, which would probably be late teens as a worst case scenario should things go as planned, would be a great move.

        At the end of the 2013 season the Raptors would clear $19.5M between Calderon and Biedrins. That might allow them to be players next summer but it certainly would allow them to be big time players next trade deadline with two big expiring contracts as chips.
        Wet blanket alert.

        Biedrins contract has a player option for 2013-14 at $9M - you would have to think it will be exercised.

        GSW 2012 pick is already top 7 protected to Utah.


        I would definitely do this if it weren't for the pick already going to Utah except I'd be looking for a top 3 protected pick.

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        • #34
          We don't need another 1st rounder ... 2 rookies, and another several core pieces under 23 is enough.
          -We should be looking to absorb vets like Martin for their own value, not for trying to attach another pick.
          The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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          • #35
            Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
            We don't need another 1st rounder ... 2 rookies, and another several core pieces under 23 is enough.
            -We should be looking to absorb vets like Martin for their own value, not for trying to attach another pick.
            Acquiring picks doesn't mean you have to keep them. Whatever we don't need/want is trade bait for future transactions.

            You can never have enough picks.

            Comment


            • #36
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              I wouldn't. The Raptors are better off just being players in free agency than doing that. The key to my idea is to not take on long term burdens. When Childress and Warrick expire doesn't appeal to the Raptors nor do they offer long term hope of being part of the long term solution.
              This is a great idea, but I worry that teams are less likely to include a 1st round pick with a player who will be an expiring contract as early as next season, unless they are super desperate to clear cap space for another deal. My expectation, when wanting a 1st round pick included, is that the player coming to Toronto would be signed beyond next season. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think the conversation changes at least a little bit when you think "long term money" VS "2013 expiring contract".

              Comment


              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Wet blanket alert.

                Biedrins contract has a player option for 2013-14 at $9M - you would have to think it will be exercised.

                GSW 2012 pick is already top 7 protected to Utah.


                I would definitely do this if it weren't for the pick already going to Utah except I'd be looking for a top 3 protected pick.
                Swing and a miss. Well, you get the idea anyway. I probably should have checked my facts a bit closer on the Warrior example but the idea is well established now and I feel this is a route that Colangelo could go because he thinks outside the box.

                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                This is a great idea, but I worry that teams are less likely to include a 1st round pick with a player who will be an expiring contract as early as next season, unless they are super desperate to clear cap space for another deal. My expectation, when wanting a 1st round pick included, is that the player coming to Toronto would be signed beyond next season. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think the conversation changes at least a little bit when you think "long term money" VS "2013 expiring contract".
                It's a good FA class and I've only mentioned teams who will have some cap and who are either looking to rebuild or retool. The teams I picked to use as examples would better be able to reshape their teams for the better if they had the space to add a couple studs to their core.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Here is some serious cap eating:

                  http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=84to3z6


                  Toronto eats Martin and Harris.
                  Utah gets Calderon.
                  Houston gets Barbosa.


                  Toronto gets a pick from NY and a pick from HOU*.

                  That be some good eatin'.



                  *Houston's pick is lottery protected to NJ and they have top 5 protected pick from Knicks.
                  Matt can you explain to me how the draft picks come back to us in all of this? Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    the_gibba wrote: View Post
                    Matt can you explain to me how the draft picks come back to us in all of this? Thanks
                    Toronto takes back salary to free cap space for other teams.

                    For the record I don't think this is realistic as Houston should be able to get much more for Kevin Martin. However Apollo was talking about what a team might do to make a huge splash in free agency.


                    Another example to this whole concept was when Denver sent Camby to the Clippers for a 2nd round pick. It wasn't to clear cap space in this example, rather to save luxury tax but it was the same concept of a team using salary cap space for something other than a free agent.
                    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Feb 16, 2012, 04:01 PM.

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                    • #40
                      When the Rockets acquired Martin they really didn't give up that much. They got to dump off D-Bag---err I mean T-Mac(sorry guys) on somebody else and in the process also gave up Landry and Dorsey. Really the only thing of significance they gave up was Landry.

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                      • #41
                        How about not making a qualifying offer to Jerryd Bayless too? Anyway, I'm all for this and kind of assumed this was the most likely way to add a high calibre veteran. If we were going to sign someone outright, it would be someone we could pay what...maybe 7-12 million a year tops? There are definitely intriguing options for doing that too (Batum, Wilson Chander) but if we can spend similar money in a trade, on a shorter deal for a similarly good player, I'm all for it. .

                        I am ok with moving pretty much anybody except Bargs (unless we get the #1 and can draft Davis). It's all about fit. I am also a big fan of eating a contract. The best part about it is the flexibility it gives you that BC cherishes so much. Instead of having many guys on medium contracts you still keep one or two big chips to trade or let expire. I don't know if Martin's the best pickup. I'm not convinced he's much of an upgrade over Demar, and I'm very against moving Demar to the 3. Works on O, but he's too weak to play strong post D on SGs, so why would he be more successful against SFs? That said I'm open to lots of ideas. Anyone have any thoughts who else might be available?

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                        • #42
                          So how does Jonas's contract and our coming pick's contract factor into our cap situation? Will their cap holds allows us to sign free agents up to our "cap room"? Also I think alot of how we spend our money this year depends on Demar. He will be up for a contract extension at the end of the year up to the start of next season? How much do we pay him? Can we really afford to wait till the following year or is this offseason the one to strike on?

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                          • #43
                            Phat Farmer wrote: View Post
                            So how does Jonas's contract and our coming pick's contract factor into our cap situation? Will their cap holds allows us to sign free agents up to our "cap room"? Also I think alot of how we spend our money this year depends on Demar. He will be up for a contract extension at the end of the year up to the start of next season? How much do we pay him? Can we really afford to wait till the following year or is this offseason the one to strike on?
                            Raptors have about $47M committed to 10 players next season - including JV and estimating 2012 pick salary as it is not known where Raps will draft yet.

                            That leaves about $11M in cap space - not including any deadline or draft night trades.

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                            • #44
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Raptors have about $47M committed to 10 players next season - including JV and estimating 2012 pick salary as it is not known where Raps will draft yet.

                              That leaves about $11M in cap space - not including any deadline or draft night trades.

                              Thanks for clearing that up Matt.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Apollo wrote: View Post
                                We've all been talking about the free agent class, right? Well here's one for you. The Raptors could have upwards of around $22M if they chose to use the amnesty clause. Without that they're still looking at like $12M. They're set to take on JV and possibly a top five lotto selection. They're going to get a big influx of talent at to key positions right there. They can add another guy, maybe good enough to be a starter in his own right, by sending Ed or Amir packing. So, we could be looking at a suped up core(addition of three young guys good enough to start) without even putting the keys in the ignition during summer free agency. If that plays out and the Raptors enter free agency how would you feel if instead of becoming "buyers" it turns out they become "eaters" by facilitating a cap dump trade by another team? Typically these sorts of trades don't lead to great players coming back but a lot of times 1st rounders are tossed in to sweeten the pot for the eater. I'll give you an example of a scenario and I am not endorsing this play, but I'm just trying to paint a picture for you of how one of these deal could work.

                                Houston enters free agency at around $30M in guaranteed contract and whole lot of team options on players. If they were to find a taker for Kevin Martin that would allow them to be power buyers in the summer to totally revamp their squad overnight. Who know's maybe they see what the Heat did and they decide to replicate it on a lower level. What if the Raptors and Rockets got together and did this:

                                Kevin Martin, 1st rounder for Solomon Alabi(team option)?

                                I know it sounds crazy but keep in mind in this scenario the Raptors have added two starters via high lottery picks and a third via an Amir Johnson or Ed Davis trade and the Rockets are looking to get rid of K-mart a year early so that they can be big players this summer. For the Raptors by adding a vet with only a year left on the books and a 1st rounder they've essentially done two things. Shored up their wing scoring, added another kick at the can in the 2013 draft and opened up options in 2013 free agent class should the free agent class of 2012 be uninterested in Toronto as a destination. Thoughts? There are other possible plays like this, this is just a hypothetical scenario.
                                The conversation Apollo and myself were having in the trade the pick thread got me thinking about this thread from 2 months ago. Apollo and I were discussing the idea of a deal centering around trading the pick for Jrue Holiday.

                                That discussion is not 100% in the spirit of this thread. However the idea of the following is similar.

                                Needless to say I have a little man crush/fixation going on Holiday the last few days. I still think he is much better than he has shown this year and the increase in the ball-handling duties for Turner has negatively effected Holiday. Also, I love watching the standings each morning and seeing Philly sink like a rock. At this point it is looking like Philly is going to be a one round and out team again this year with a playoff battle looming with either Chicago or Miami. Of course, that assumes they even make the playoffs! Given how Milwaukee has played of late and how Philly has making the playoffs is hardly a given anymore.

                                So if they miss the playoffs or get bounced quickly in the first round, I think big changes are in order. One way to get the changes rolling would be to lose Elton Brand. Now the 76ers could outright amnesty him but that doesn't return any assets and it is essentially throwing away $18M on a player who is still productive but not worth nearly $18M. Philly has $58M tied up in salary for next year at this time.

                                What I've been trying to come up with is a scenario where the Raptors use their extra $12M to eat Brand's salary but get back Jrue Holiday in the exchange and DO NOT trade their 2012 first round pick. Honestly, in a one for one trade I can't see it working. Here is my best stab at it with just 2 teams in the trade trade:

                                1) Philly gets Calderon and 2 second round picks plus a future protected 1st round pick.
                                2) Philly gets ED and JJ plus future protected pick and 2 second rounders (Toronto uses TPE to absorb Holiday).

                                The main idea here is Philly creates over $12M in cap space for this summer.

                                Here is my best stab at it with a third team added:

                                Some combination where Calderon goes to Utah, Millsap to Philly, and Holiday and Brand to Toronto. Picks other players thrown in to make it all work.

                                As for Toronto getting Brand, he is a huge $18M expiring contract that could be flipped at the next trade deadline for a high salaried player on a team going nowhere. He might expire worthless but at least Toronto would get a future PG out of it and his Bird Rights to resign him.

                                Brand himself would not be useless next year as a solid veteran who can help ease the transition for JV. I would imagine come January, Brand would be very much expendable - assuming my expectations for JV are not too high.



                                So what do you think? Would you take on Brand for a chance to get Holiday?

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