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Thread: Cap Eating?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    How about not making a qualifying offer to Jerryd Bayless too? Anyway, I'm all for this and kind of assumed this was the most likely way to add a high calibre veteran. If we were going to sign someone outright, it would be someone we could pay what...maybe 7-12 million a year tops? There are definitely intriguing options for doing that too (Batum, Wilson Chander) but if we can spend similar money in a trade, on a shorter deal for a similarly good player, I'm all for it. .

    I am ok with moving pretty much anybody except Bargs (unless we get the #1 and can draft Davis). It's all about fit. I am also a big fan of eating a contract. The best part about it is the flexibility it gives you that BC cherishes so much. Instead of having many guys on medium contracts you still keep one or two big chips to trade or let expire. I don't know if Martin's the best pickup. I'm not convinced he's much of an upgrade over Demar, and I'm very against moving Demar to the 3. Works on O, but he's too weak to play strong post D on SGs, so why would he be more successful against SFs? That said I'm open to lots of ideas. Anyone have any thoughts who else might be available?

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Rookie Phat Farmer's Avatar
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    So how does Jonas's contract and our coming pick's contract factor into our cap situation? Will their cap holds allows us to sign free agents up to our "cap room"? Also I think alot of how we spend our money this year depends on Demar. He will be up for a contract extension at the end of the year up to the start of next season? How much do we pay him? Can we really afford to wait till the following year or is this offseason the one to strike on?

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Phat Farmer wrote: View Post
    So how does Jonas's contract and our coming pick's contract factor into our cap situation? Will their cap holds allows us to sign free agents up to our "cap room"? Also I think alot of how we spend our money this year depends on Demar. He will be up for a contract extension at the end of the year up to the start of next season? How much do we pay him? Can we really afford to wait till the following year or is this offseason the one to strike on?
    Raptors have about $47M committed to 10 players next season - including JV and estimating 2012 pick salary as it is not known where Raps will draft yet.

    That leaves about $11M in cap space - not including any deadline or draft night trades.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Rookie Phat Farmer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Raptors have about $47M committed to 10 players next season - including JV and estimating 2012 pick salary as it is not known where Raps will draft yet.

    That leaves about $11M in cap space - not including any deadline or draft night trades.

    Thanks for clearing that up Matt.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    We've all been talking about the free agent class, right? Well here's one for you. The Raptors could have upwards of around $22M if they chose to use the amnesty clause. Without that they're still looking at like $12M. They're set to take on JV and possibly a top five lotto selection. They're going to get a big influx of talent at to key positions right there. They can add another guy, maybe good enough to be a starter in his own right, by sending Ed or Amir packing. So, we could be looking at a suped up core(addition of three young guys good enough to start) without even putting the keys in the ignition during summer free agency. If that plays out and the Raptors enter free agency how would you feel if instead of becoming "buyers" it turns out they become "eaters" by facilitating a cap dump trade by another team? Typically these sorts of trades don't lead to great players coming back but a lot of times 1st rounders are tossed in to sweeten the pot for the eater. I'll give you an example of a scenario and I am not endorsing this play, but I'm just trying to paint a picture for you of how one of these deal could work.

    Houston enters free agency at around $30M in guaranteed contract and whole lot of team options on players. If they were to find a taker for Kevin Martin that would allow them to be power buyers in the summer to totally revamp their squad overnight. Who know's maybe they see what the Heat did and they decide to replicate it on a lower level. What if the Raptors and Rockets got together and did this:

    Kevin Martin, 1st rounder for Solomon Alabi(team option)?

    I know it sounds crazy but keep in mind in this scenario the Raptors have added two starters via high lottery picks and a third via an Amir Johnson or Ed Davis trade and the Rockets are looking to get rid of K-mart a year early so that they can be big players this summer. For the Raptors by adding a vet with only a year left on the books and a 1st rounder they've essentially done two things. Shored up their wing scoring, added another kick at the can in the 2013 draft and opened up options in 2013 free agent class should the free agent class of 2012 be uninterested in Toronto as a destination. Thoughts? There are other possible plays like this, this is just a hypothetical scenario.
    The conversation Apollo and myself were having in the trade the pick thread got me thinking about this thread from 2 months ago. Apollo and I were discussing the idea of a deal centering around trading the pick for Jrue Holiday.

    That discussion is not 100% in the spirit of this thread. However the idea of the following is similar.

    Needless to say I have a little man crush/fixation going on Holiday the last few days. I still think he is much better than he has shown this year and the increase in the ball-handling duties for Turner has negatively effected Holiday. Also, I love watching the standings each morning and seeing Philly sink like a rock. At this point it is looking like Philly is going to be a one round and out team again this year with a playoff battle looming with either Chicago or Miami. Of course, that assumes they even make the playoffs! Given how Milwaukee has played of late and how Philly has making the playoffs is hardly a given anymore.

    So if they miss the playoffs or get bounced quickly in the first round, I think big changes are in order. One way to get the changes rolling would be to lose Elton Brand. Now the 76ers could outright amnesty him but that doesn't return any assets and it is essentially throwing away $18M on a player who is still productive but not worth nearly $18M. Philly has $58M tied up in salary for next year at this time.

    What I've been trying to come up with is a scenario where the Raptors use their extra $12M to eat Brand's salary but get back Jrue Holiday in the exchange and DO NOT trade their 2012 first round pick. Honestly, in a one for one trade I can't see it working. Here is my best stab at it with just 2 teams in the trade trade:

    1) Philly gets Calderon and 2 second round picks plus a future protected 1st round pick.
    2) Philly gets ED and JJ plus future protected pick and 2 second rounders (Toronto uses TPE to absorb Holiday).

    The main idea here is Philly creates over $12M in cap space for this summer.

    Here is my best stab at it with a third team added:

    Some combination where Calderon goes to Utah, Millsap to Philly, and Holiday and Brand to Toronto. Picks other players thrown in to make it all work.

    As for Toronto getting Brand, he is a huge $18M expiring contract that could be flipped at the next trade deadline for a high salaried player on a team going nowhere. He might expire worthless but at least Toronto would get a future PG out of it and his Bird Rights to resign him.

    Brand himself would not be useless next year as a solid veteran who can help ease the transition for JV. I would imagine come January, Brand would be very much expendable - assuming my expectations for JV are not too high.



    So what do you think? Would you take on Brand for a chance to get Holiday?

  6. #46
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Toss in DeRozan and Turner and this thing gets a little more interesting.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    We don't need another 1st rounder ... 2 rookies, and another several core pieces under 23 is enough.
    -We should be looking to absorb vets like Martin for their own value, not for trying to attach another pick.
    +1

    Eating the cap space was a good idea before the deadline. I'm not sure now. We have enough rookies for next season in Val and our first rounder.

    We should be concentrating on getting borderline all-stars in the free agent market. We already have the cap space to do that. Nice and simple.

    I can think of only one possible scenario of BC going through all this : we are having trouble moving our existing assets (Bargnani, Demar, Calderon) by themselves. So we acquire first rounders and package them with the players for elite players that are available and have stated their willingness to come here. How many elite players are on the market now? Dwight, D-will, KG (vomit), Gerald wallace, nash.


    why take on bad contracts? usually with bad contracts come the entire package - hedo, wallace & arenas-types with bad attitude who spread it like a plague. locker room disasters.



    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The conversation Apollo and myself were having in the trade the pick thread got me thinking about this thread from 2 months ago. Apollo and I were discussing the idea of a deal centering around trading the pick for Jrue Holiday.

    That discussion is not 100% in the spirit of this thread. However the idea of the following is similar.

    Needless to say I have a little man crush/fixation going on Holiday the last few days. I still think he is much better than he has shown this year and the increase in the ball-handling duties for Turner has negatively effected Holiday. Also, I love watching the standings each morning and seeing Philly sink like a rock. At this point it is looking like Philly is going to be a one round and out team again this year with a playoff battle looming with either Chicago or Miami. Of course, that assumes they even make the playoffs! Given how Milwaukee has played of late and how Philly has making the playoffs is hardly a given anymore.

    So if they miss the playoffs or get bounced quickly in the first round, I think big changes are in order. One way to get the changes rolling would be to lose Elton Brand. Now the 76ers could outright amnesty him but that doesn't return any assets and it is essentially throwing away $18M on a player who is still productive but not worth nearly $18M. Philly has $58M tied up in salary for next year at this time.

    What I've been trying to come up with is a scenario where the Raptors use their extra $12M to eat Brand's salary but get back Jrue Holiday in the exchange and DO NOT trade their 2012 first round pick. Honestly, in a one for one trade I can't see it working. Here is my best stab at it with just 2 teams in the trade trade:

    1) Philly gets Calderon and 2 second round picks plus a future protected 1st round pick.
    2) Philly gets ED and JJ plus future protected pick and 2 second rounders (Toronto uses TPE to absorb Holiday).

    The main idea here is Philly creates over $12M in cap space for this summer.

    Here is my best stab at it with a third team added:

    Some combination where Calderon goes to Utah, Millsap to Philly, and Holiday and Brand to Toronto. Picks other players thrown in to make it all work.

    As for Toronto getting Brand, he is a huge $18M expiring contract that could be flipped at the next trade deadline for a high salaried player on a team going nowhere. He might expire worthless but at least Toronto would get a future PG out of it and his Bird Rights to resign him.

    Brand himself would not be useless next year as a solid veteran who can help ease the transition for JV. I would imagine come January, Brand would be very much expendable - assuming my expectations for JV are not too high.



    So what do you think? Would you take on Brand for a chance to get Holiday?
    Why can't we try to get Holiday straight without taking up Brand's contract? I like the idea of Holiday here but that would mean bringing in a playmaker. If we take up elton brand's contract it would leave us really short in other positions which needs strengthening even with the 10million excess. Brand might still have productive years in him but I would rather keep Amir and Davis if we can have the capspace to bring in good wing players.

    In conclusion,
    no taking up bad contracts
    offer lucrative contracts to talented free agents
    make complicated/risky moves only if the likes of D-will wants to come here badly

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    +1

    Eating the cap space was a good idea before the deadline. I'm not sure now. We have enough rookies for next season in Val and our first rounder.

    We should be concentrating on getting borderline all-stars in the free agent market. We already have the cap space to do that. Nice and simple.

    I can think of only one possible scenario of BC going through all this : we are having trouble moving our existing assets (Bargnani, Demar, Calderon) by themselves. So we acquire first rounders and package them with the players for elite players that are available and have stated their willingness to come here. How many elite players are on the market now? Dwight, D-will, KG (vomit), Gerald wallace, nash.


    why take on bad contracts? usually with bad contracts come the entire package - hedo, wallace & arenas-types with bad attitude who spread it like a plague. locker room disasters.





    Why can't we try to get Holiday straight without taking up Brand's contract? I like the idea of Holiday here but that would mean bringing in a playmaker. If we take up elton brand's contract it would leave us really short in other positions which needs strengthening even with the 10million excess. Brand might still have productive years in him but I would rather keep Amir and Davis if we can have the capspace to bring in good wing players.

    In conclusion,
    no taking up bad contracts
    offer lucrative contracts to talented free agents
    make complicated/risky moves only if the likes of D-will wants to come here badly
    Who said the draft pick would make it to Toronto next year? It is another asset used for bigger things.

    Brand is the farthest thing from a bad attitude one could get.

    You can't get Holiday straight up because he is too good.
    I disagree he isn't a play maker. He doesn't get the ball as much with the emergence of Turner.
    Brand has one year left - not many. He would be a productive player as JV gets his feet wet.

    In conclusion:
    Bad expiring contracts can be good.
    the only way you get a free agent to Toronto is to overspend - remember Turk? Anyone young enough to matter long term will be restricted - forget Batum.
    the Raps only choice is to make trades at this time as only a free agent looking to get paid is coming here (outside of maybe Nash).

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    this about brand is that we still have bargs. How will brand fit into the rotation?

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Brand is the farthest thing from a bad attitude one could get.Brand has one year left - not many.

    He would be a productive player as JV gets his feet wet.
    True. Not sure we need to spend 18million for one player and be short of options elsewhere. And my objection is not for this particular trade but to the idea of taking bad contracts at the start of fresh year.

    We can find experienced centers with better contracts who would serve as better mentors than brand who is really a 4. And Philly cannot afford to lose him at this stage. They don't have any immediate replacements and they can sign him on a veteran contract at the end of next season. They are better off getting rid of Thaddeus's 5 year monster contract.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Who said the draft pick would make it to Toronto next year? It is another asset used for bigger things.

    .
    But do we need to do that to acquire pieces? I don't think it is necessary unless we are talking about a big time player. Holiday is not one right now.




    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    You can't get Holiday straight up because he is too good.
    True. Offer existing second rounders and youngsters. If they are not interested look elsewhere for similar talent. He is not one of a kind.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    I disagree he isn't a play maker. He doesn't get the ball as much with the emergence of Turner.
    Iguodala and Lou actually.Too bad we don't have 'hockey assists' to know if that is indeed the case.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    Bad expiring contracts can be good.
    the only way you get a free agent to Toronto is to overspend - remember Turk? Anyone young enough to matter long term will be restricted - forget Batum.
    the Raps only choice is to make trades at this time as only a free agent looking to get paid is coming here (outside of maybe Nash).
    Bad expiring contracts are good in the middle of a season . You keep them to make cap space for a big time player - like Barbosa.
    Turk was a bad experimen and hopefully BC learnt a lesson for his naive thinking. You cannot get someone (lacking the basics) who works very well in a particular system on a mega contract.
    I don't think PG is a position we have to worry about. You don't have to overspend on someone like Dragic or even Bayless. And Nash would be a good acquisition too. You can also go for someone cheap like Beaubois or Aaron brooks as a cover for Calderon if you are concerned about his lack of speed. Only elite talent justifies taking up bad contracts.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    True. Not sure we need to spend 18million for one player and be short of options elsewhere. And my objection is not for this particular trade but to the idea of taking bad contracts at the start of fresh year.

    We can find experienced centers with better contracts who would serve as better mentors than brand who is really a 4. And Philly cannot afford to lose him at this stage. They don't have any immediate replacements and they can sign him on a veteran contract at the end of next season. They are better off getting rid of Thaddeus's 5 year monster contract.
    Short of options? The Raptors would still have pieces to make trades and come free agency they'd have their MLE, Bi-Annual exception, and top-up exception. Don't forget the 2012 draft pick and the addition of JV. *EDIT* It should also be noted that taking on Brand via trade would allow the Raptors to maintain the TPE acquired from the Barbosa deal. That allows up to $7.6M in contract to be acquired once they are over the salary cap. Taking on Brand only limits the Raptors options in free agency to exceptions - and given BC's and Stefanski's free agent history, that might not be a bad thing.

    But do we need to do that to acquire pieces? I don't think it is necessary unless we are talking about a big time player. Holiday is not one right now.
    A 21 year old, defensive minded, 6'4" PG who can create for himself, others, and shoot the three is a big time piece. He still has 2-3 years before he enters his prime and he has a history with DeRozan. If he was a big time player the price would be much more than 1 year of Elton Brand.


    True. Offer existing second rounders and youngsters. If they are not interested look elsewhere for similar talent. He is not one of a kind.
    Name another PG in the league who is 21 and has his size, ability, and upside.



    Iguodala and Lou actually.Too bad we don't have 'hockey assists' to know if that is indeed the case.


    Bad expiring contracts are good in the middle of a season . You keep them to make cap space for a big time player - like Barbosa.
    Turk was a bad experimen and hopefully BC learnt a lesson for his naive thinking. You cannot get someone (lacking the basics) who works very well in a particular system on a mega contract.
    I don't think PG is a position we have to worry about. You don't have to overspend on someone like Dragic or even Bayless. And Nash would be a good acquisition too. You can also go for someone cheap like Beaubois or Aaron brooks as a cover for Calderon if you are concerned about his lack of speed. Only elite talent justifies taking up bad contracts.
    Unfortunately acquiring a bad expiring contract in the middle of the season creates issues with the CBA and re-trading that player.

    Bayless is not the answer. Calderon is not the answer long term. Dragic will cash in big time this summer. Brooks will not be cheap and if he is PHX will match any offer as he is restricted. Nash would be a good acquisition but he will not be cheap and a back up plan will have to be in place as his shelf life is limited to 3 more seasons.

    Taking on Brand for one season is worth the cost when a player like Holiday comes back in the deal who could very easily be your starting PG for the next 10 seasons.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Taking on Brand for one season is worth the cost when a player like Holiday comes back in the deal who could very easily be your starting PG for the next 10 seasons.
    I agreed 100%. I'd make this deal in a freakin' heartbeat!

    Aside from Holiday's upside, Brand's $18 million coming off the books will be MASSIVE for us in the summer of 2013. Either that, or he's a big trade chip at the deadline. Win-win for the Raptors.

    Some notable 2013 free agents:
    - Monta Ellis (early termination option)
    - Tyreke Evans (restricted)
    - James Harden (restricted)
    - Josh Smith (unrestricted)
    - Trevor Ariza (player option)
    - Serge Ibaka (restricted)
    - Paul Millsap (unrestricted)
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agreed 100%. I'd make this deal in a freakin' heartbeat!

    Aside from Holiday's upside, Brand's $18 million coming off the books will be MASSIVE for us in the summer of 2013. Either that, or he's a big trade chip at the deadline. Win-win for the Raptors.

    Some notable 2013 free agents:
    - Monta Ellis (early termination option)
    - Tyreke Evans (restricted)
    - James Harden (restricted)
    - Josh Smith (unrestricted)
    - Trevor Ariza (player option)
    - Serge Ibaka (restricted)
    - Paul Millsap (unrestricted)
    The only name I really like out of that list is Harden. However I'd take on Brand's contract for one year in the hopes of getting Harden in 2013 even if it does blow our cap space in 2012.

    A backcourt of Harden/Holiday would be pretty sweet.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agreed 100%. I'd make this deal in a freakin' heartbeat!

    Aside from Holiday's upside, Brand's $18 million coming off the books will be MASSIVE for us in the summer of 2013. Either that, or he's a big trade chip at the deadline. Win-win for the Raptors.

    Some notable 2013 free agents:
    - Monta Ellis (early termination option)
    - Tyreke Evans (restricted)
    - James Harden (restricted)
    - Josh Smith (unrestricted)
    - Trevor Ariza (player option)
    - Serge Ibaka (restricted)
    - Paul Millsap (unrestricted)
    The only issue come summer of 2013, the Raptors would have to extend Holiday, DeRozan, and possibly JJ. Any cap space would technically be a waste as it would have to be used on extensions of current players first.

    In my opinion, their best bet would be to use their Barbosa TPE to get a solid wing after such a trade as the Brand/Holiday one suggested and use their exceptions this year and next in free agency. Also, they could get a star player with the expiring contract of Brand and including picks and/or players on rookie deals.

    In doing so they would be pretty much set with a young team to grow and develop together over the next 5 years:

    PG: Holiday
    SG: 2012 pick (Beal?) or DD
    SF: 2012 pick (Barnes?) or DD
    PF: Bargnani
    C: JV

    I'd be really excited to see what happens with the Barbosa exception. I'd love to see Wesley Matthews in Toronto.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I thought a Barbosa TPE wasn't actually obtained.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I thought a Barbosa TPE wasn't actually obtained.
    It was.

    It will be useless come free agency if the Raptors want to sign a big name though as they will have to renounce it to get the cap space. However, if they makes trades to use their cap space, the TPE stays in play.

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I thought a Barbosa TPE wasn't actually obtained.
    I actually asked Larry Coon in one of his chats.. and because Toronto has cap holds from guys like Julian Wright and Nesterovic they are over the cap and as such got a TPE.

    Toronto can renounce the TPE if they want to sign a free agent, or they can use it to absorb a salary without giving any back.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I actually asked Larry Coon in one of his chats.. and because Toronto has cap holds from guys like Julian Wright and Nesterovic they are over the cap and as such got a TPE.

    Toronto can renounce the TPE if they want to sign a free agent, or they can use it to absorb a salary without giving any back.
    This is a much better answer than mine. Thanks, planetmars.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    A 21 year old, defensive minded, 6'4" PG who can create for himself, others, and shoot the three is a big time piece. He still has 2-3 years before he enters his prime and he has a history with DeRozan. If he was a big time player the price would be much more than 1 year of Elton Brand.


    Name another PG in the league who is 21 and has his size, ability, and upside.

    Brandon Jennings. History with Demar. Big time player. I would take up any contract and offer everything except for Val + current first rounder to get him.

    Again I don' think that particular trade with Philly is bad. In fact I fear we will have good competition in the unlikely event of Philly selling Holiday. I am just opposed to the idea of taking up bad contracts.

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    Now I dont know the Philly team that well, and dont know how they value their players or what their future plan is, but do you think they would/we should consider a brand and holiday swap for Calderon and Bargs?

    It does not get them more cap space, but they get an upgrade from Brand in Bargs, who brings a lot of offense, something they seem to be lacking. They also get Calderon, who could either start if needed to, or could be an amazing off the bench PG playing a lot of mins behind ET (If they do move him to pg). I think Calderon would be great playing with ET and Iggy.

    In return, we get the PG of the future, young skilled with lots of potential, capable of running a team and an above average defender. We also get Brand for a big veteran player that Casey has been looking for, for a year, and hopefully we can then sign him for a lot cheaper.

    Not sure who says no to this deal as I do not know much about the Philly players.

    Also, anyway we could get Lou Williams? Maybe add Amir in the trade?
    We completely get rid of the Glut at PF, and we get an off the bench spark plug we apparently had a lot of interest in.

    Final line-ups
    Holiday/Bayless? (Dragic?)
    DD/Williams
    JJ/Klieza
    Brand/Ed
    Val/Gray
    As well as our first round pick

    Philly line-up
    ET/Calderon
    Meeks/ET
    Iggy/Young
    Bargs/Young
    Hawes

    What do you guys think?

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