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Thread: Nash Watch: L.A. bound (#1009)

  1. #21
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This is a fatal does of why-should-I-bother-to-keep-trying?

    Effective role players: Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Gray. By the way, when I say effective role players, I am referring to bench players. Kleiza, JJ, Amir, and Gray is a very effective bench in my opinion.

    Casey might not be genius but Dirk says they wouldn't have won without him and he did set up a system to shut down Wade AND LeBron. If that is not genius then it is at the very least extremely intelligent.

    Valanciunas is as unproven as any draft pick. Considering in two games against AK47 and Kristic he put up 11.5 points and 8.5 rebounds as a 19 year old, I think his chances fair very well for success at the NBA level.

    The Raptors, known as the worst defensive team in the league the last 2 seasons, have evolved in to an average defensive team with predominantly the same players. The Raps are 14th in Opp/PPG and 18th in defensive rating. Regardless of whether or not Bargnani is a great defensive player as that is a discussion for another thread, the team has played better defense with him on the court than off and his opp/PER in 13 games this season is a very impressive 10.5. This, of course, forgets he was 5th in scoring in the entire league in the games he played.

    As for Nash's presence not making the defense any better, how so? Phoenix is a much better defensive team with Nash on the floor than off (103.5 points per 100 possessions on versus 110.3 off). His individual opponents PER is 13.3 which is very impressive considering Rondo's is 11.8, Paul's is 15.2, and Calderon's is 17.5 (all stats from 82games.com). Nash is not a stellar defender by any stretch but he is no worse than Calderon - and possibly better.

    How is it so the Raptors need three max players? How is that working out in New York? Memphis? Of course there are examples of it working out as well, Miami for example, however there is no guarantee is my only point.

    $20M is not enough? That depends on what you do with it. If you are talking strictly free agency, I agree. However salary cap space is for much more than free agency - trades?

    Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes - now that is something I can agree with.


    Considering Colangelo has taken two different teams and had a 20-plus win differential from one season to the next, I am going to take him at his word when he says they will hit the ground running next season (but I am also a BC-fanboy). I appreciate the negativity and understand its root but given the amount of flexibility the team has over the next 5 months, I don't think it can be argued strongly for or against what the next 2 years hold. However blanket negative statements with nothing behind them but negative opinions is hardly grounds for a doom and gloom prophecy with any merit.
    I was going to respond to his post and thought why waste my time educating him with the facts and say things I shouldn't. Thanks Matt for summarizing and taking the time to respond in how I was too lazy to, and probably smart to leave out the things I shouldn't say.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Kabongo will most likely stay another year if he's not projected to be in the lottery.

  3. #23
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This is a fatal does of why-should-I-bother-to-keep-trying?

    Effective role players: Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Gray. By the way, when I say effective role players, I am referring to bench players. Kleiza, JJ, Amir, and Gray is a very effective bench in my opinion.

    Casey might not be genius but Dirk says they wouldn't have won without him and he did set up a system to shut down Wade AND LeBron. If that is not genius then it is at the very least extremely intelligent.

    Valanciunas is as unproven as any draft pick. Considering in two games against AK47 and Kristic he put up 11.5 points and 8.5 rebounds as a 19 year old, I think his chances fair very well for success at the NBA level.

    The Raptors, known as the worst defensive team in the league the last 2 seasons, have evolved in to an average defensive team with predominantly the same players. The Raps are 14th in Opp/PPG and 18th in defensive rating. Regardless of whether or not Bargnani is a great defensive player as that is a discussion for another thread, the team has played better defense with him on the court than off and his opp/PER in 13 games this season is a very impressive 10.5. This, of course, forgets he was 5th in scoring in the entire league in the games he played.

    As for Nash's presence not making the defense any better, how so? Phoenix is a much better defensive team with Nash on the floor than off (103.5 points per 100 possessions on versus 110.3 off). His individual opponents PER is 13.3 which is very impressive considering Rondo's is 11.8, Paul's is 15.2, and Calderon's is 17.5 (all stats from 82games.com). Nash is not a stellar defender by any stretch but he is no worse than Calderon - and possibly better.

    How is it so the Raptors need three max players? How is that working out in New York? Memphis? Of course there are examples of it working out as well, Miami for example, however there is no guarantee is my only point.

    $20M is not enough? That depends on what you do with it. If you are talking strictly free agency, I agree. However salary cap space is for much more than free agency - trades?

    Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes - now that is something I can agree with.


    Considering Colangelo has taken two different teams and had a 20-plus win differential from one season to the next, I am going to take him at his word when he says they will hit the ground running next season (but I am also a BC-fanboy). I appreciate the negativity and understand its root but given the amount of flexibility the team has over the next 5 months, I don't think it can be argued strongly for or against what the next 2 years hold. However blanket negative statements with nothing behind them but negative opinions is hardly grounds for a doom and gloom prophecy with any merit.
    You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

    History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Kabongo will most likely stay another year if he's not projected to be in the lottery.
    They said the same thing about Cory Joseph last year.

    If a team tells him they will take him, I think he declares. Even if he is taken 25th, it is still around $2.2M guaranteed. Plus it does not appear Barnes is a fan - *disclaimer - total speculation on my part. Barnes has been hard on him but many good coaches are hard on the players they don't feel are performing to ability, so who knows.*

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

    History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.
    Of course. What other stats would one use? This short season is also 33 games in with an average of 3.9 games per week.

    History also shows that badly run franchises often go through a good steak at some point - deserved or not. History also shows that badly run franchises can also turn it around. History also shows us that the Raptors have never before gone through a proper rebuild as teams were put together with making the playoffs the main goal.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

    History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.
    history shows that this year the lakers, or celtics will have the biggest chance to win the championship so with your reasoning should all other teams just not play?

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    They said the same thing about Cory Joseph last year.

    If a team tells him they will take him, I think he declares. Even if he is taken 25th, it is still around $2.2M guaranteed. Plus it does not appear Barnes is a fan - *disclaimer - total speculation on my part. Barnes has been hard on him but many good coaches are hard on the players they don't feel are performing to ability, so who knows.*
    i agree that if he gets a promise of being drafted with a guaranteed contract he would declare. a freak accident in college ball could ruin these players careers and potential earnings. i was very surprised with barnes and jones not declaring last year even with the lockout looming. they would of had to have known it would end and they would get paid.

  8. #28
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    They said the same thing about Cory Joseph last year.

    If a team tells him they will take him, I think he declares. Even if he is taken 25th, it is still around $2.2M guaranteed. Plus it does not appear Barnes is a fan - *disclaimer - total speculation on my part. Barnes has been hard on him but many good coaches are hard on the players they don't feel are performing to ability, so who knows.*
    He has more potential and talent than Joseph. Plus, Joseph knew he'd be the backup once Kabongo got there...

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    The Raptors need a leader ... Myck could absolutely work himself into that role with the team. And if he had Nash as a mentor and transition piece? Couldn't be scripted any better.

    We might be in a bit of a squeeze with our first pick likely being too high for Myck, and our 2nd pick being too low - but that's why BC gets paid the big bucks ... I agree we have lots of solid assets, some of which could be used to facilitate a move like that.

    All of the points are very true, fact based, and make a lot of sense ... too bad some posters are lumping the thread in with all the people who say, "Nash should come here ... and Myck ... Canadian boner" ... Very strong case for how it may happen, even if it does contain a lot of things that would have to play out a certain way ... crazier things happen every day.

    One closing element to why Nash may come ... kind of touched on in some of the points ... he would have FUUUUUN! There is the whole 'Canadian icon in Canada aspect', but I mean on the court. As a pure playmaker, and highlight reel maker ... Nash would have some serious targets to hit with Bargs and Jonas in pick and roll/pick and pop ... Demar, JJ, Amir streaking down the lanes in a fast break ... another high draft pick too, with fresh legs ... I think the last 2 years in Phoenix have been a bit of a mental drain, and the game simply can't be as much fun to play without some dogs to run with.
    Last edited by Papa Burgundy; Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 09:05 AM.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    The Raptors need a leader ... Myck could absolutely work himself into that role with the team. And if he had Nash as a mentor and transition piece? Couldn't be scripted any better.

    We might be in a bit of a squeeze with our first pick likely being too high for Myck, and our 2nd pick being too low - but that's why BC gets paid the big bucks ... I agree we have lots of solid assets, some of which could be used to facilitate a move like that.

    All of the points are very true, fact based, and make a lot of sense ... too bad some posters are lumping the thread in with all the people who say, "Nash should come here ... and Myck ... Canadian boner" ... Very strong case for how it may happen, even if it does contain a lot of things that would have to play out a certain way ... crazier things happen every day.

    One closing element to why Nash may come ... kind of touched on in some of the points ... he would have FUUUUUN! There is the whole 'Canadian icon in Canada aspect', but I mean on the court. As a pure playmaker, and highlight reel maker ... Nash would have some serious targets to hit with Bargs and Jonas in pick and roll/pick and pop ... Demar, JJ, Amir streaking down the lanes in a fast break ... another high draft pick too, with fresh legs ... I think the last 2 years in Phoenix have been a bit of a mental drain, and the game simply can't be as much fun to play without some dogs to run with.

    Yes, I don't think I gave this enough attention originally. His game is heavily based on the pick and roll and what great options with JV and AB.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    It makes too much sense so it'll never happen.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

    History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.
    If that's how you feel, then you must be a masochist to post on a fan website of such a "badly-run franchise."

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    It's a pretty sad day for me when posters want to believe a college player could work himself as the leader of the team.

    Have the Raptors sunken so low?

  14. #34
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    It's a pretty sad day for me when posters want to believe a college player could work himself as the leader of the team.

    Have the Raptors sunken so low?
    I assume you mean Myck Kabongo. Who said he would be the leader of the team?

    I can't speak for anyone else but in the situation I originally described I wouldn't see him starting for 2-3 years - basically when Nash was done.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    It's a pretty sad day for me when posters want to believe a college player could work himself as the leader of the team.

    Have the Raptors sunken so low?
    In game 1 of the 2012-13 season, obviously not. You don't draft players (usually) for what they'll give you right away, you draft them for the player they will become.

  16. #36
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I assume you mean Myck Kabongo. Who said he would be the leader of the team?

    I can't speak for anyone else but in the situation I originally described I wouldn't see him starting for 2-3 years - basically when Nash was done.
    It was not you, Matt.

    However, I would argue a plan based on acquiring two specific players, one via free agency and the other via the draft, is NOT a plan but rather a dream.

    Dreams are fine and history has shown they sometime become reality. But when you're old, wise, and cranky like me, dreams are just ethereal gossamers ready to be destroyed at the first touch of reality.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    It was not you, Matt.

    However, I would argue a plan based on acquiring two specific players, one via free agency and the other via the draft, is NOT a plan but rather a dream.

    Dreams are fine and history has shown they sometime become reality. But when you're old, wise, and cranky like me, dreams are just ethereal gossamers ready to be destroyed at the first touch of reality.
    You need a plan to know where you're going otherwise you're chasing your tail - which, funny enough, is what the Raptors franchise has been doing for 16 years it seems.

    As for the original idea, a few things would have to happen but I don't think it is crazy. Attempting to sign 3 of the top 5 picks in very strong draft 7 years later would be dream-like and foolish...... ummmm..... nevermind.

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    Personally, I'd love to see Nash play out his final years here, but watching him play on that Phoenix team this year, you can tell it just eats him up that they're not in the playoff chase..and probably won't reach the post season. I'd much rather see him sign for the MLE with the Lakers and chase a ring - He deserves it- rather than coming to play here with a team that's still at least a good season or two away from reaching the post season.

  19. #39
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Personally, I'd love to see Nash play out his final years here, but watching him play on that Phoenix team this year, you can tell it just eats him up that they're not in the playoff chase..and probably won't reach the post season. I'd much rather see him sign for the MLE with the Lakers and chase a ring - He deserves it- rather than coming to play here with a team that's still at least a good season or two away from reaching the post season.
    It seems like a daunting task, but I don't see why the Raptors can't be a playoff team next year. When Bargnani was healthy we were in playoff range this year. Next year, we'll be adding more talent, and if we added Nash, a healthy Bargnani, a proper training camp with Dwane, JV and our new rookie, plus another year of development with Demar/JJ/Davis - I think its possible.

    We are in the Eastern conference too - a much easier conference to get into the playoffs with.

    LAL is not getting past the first round this year - with or without Nash. If you want Nash on a contender, the better team would be a team like Miami, Dallas or even Indiana.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    It seems like a daunting task, but I don't see why the Raptors can't be a playoff team next year. When Bargnani was healthy we were in playoff range this year. Next year, we'll be adding more talent, and if we added Nash, a healthy Bargnani, a proper training camp with Dwane, JV and our new rookie, plus another year of development with Demar/JJ/Davis - I think its possible.

    We are in the Eastern conference too - a much easier conference to get into the playoffs with.

    LAL is not getting past the first round this year - with or without Nash. If you want Nash on a contender, the better team would be a team like Miami, Dallas or even Indiana.
    Could the Raptors be a playoff team next season? Absolutely, however, you're counting on guys to progress - nor regress, and what moves they make the off-season. With Stefanski on board, it doesn't look like they're going to go after more veteran type FA's or through trade. It looks like they want to build the team with younger, more inexperienced players. You're counting on a lot of things to go right.

    I don't know about Miami. LBJ is the primary ball handler on that team. So Miami is out. Dallas could be a possibility with Kidd off the books and with Nash and Nowitzki being bff's.

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