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Thread: Nash Watch: L.A. bound (#1009)

  1. #201
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Not totally correct in my opinion. E.g. Nash has Grant Hill, who is still an excellent defender, covering pointguards on a regular basis.
    So then Nash has to guard larger 2 guards?

    The numbers are what they are.

    The Raptors did 'less bad' with Calderon off the floor. The Suns did MUCH worse with Nash off the floor.

    Calderon's opponents had a higher PER than him and above NBA average. Nash's opponents had a lower PER than him and a lower than NBA average.

    Calderon had a much lower win percentage compared to Nash.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu May 10th, 2012 at 09:51 AM. Reason: clarification

  2. #202
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The numbers are for 2011-12.
    Well the stats certainly suggest Nash is a far superior defender to Calderon this season.

  3. #203
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Well the stats certainly suggest Nash is a far superior defender to Calderon this season.
    Right, that should be noted if it wasn't already picked up on. We are looking at just one season - 2011/12.

  4. #204
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Looks can be deceiving I suppose... Maybe Nash is a better defender in general. I don't know, I've always felt Calderon looked more competent but that just might be my biased interpretation...

  5. #205
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Looks can be deceiving I suppose... Maybe Nash is a better defender in general. I don't know, I've always felt Calderon looked more competent but that just might be my biased interpretation...
    Nobody can get down in a stance and look intense like Jose! lol

  6. #206
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If you can't fill the part you better look the part. Touché.

  7. #207
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    According to Alex Kennedy (Hoopsworld):

    Sources say Phoenix will likely offer Steve Nash two years, $20 million. However, I think Nash leaves money on the table to join contender.
    Nash wants to win now. He has made it clear that he wants to be on a competitive team. Unless the Suns make big changes, I think he leaves.
    https://twitter.com/#!/AlexKennedyNBA
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  8. #208
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    See the thing is, when you take all factors into consideration, the Raptors will be a highly competitive team next season if Nash were to join. Not only that but he would be the leader of the squad. That might mean a lot to him because he's already said he doesn't want to be like the Glove(without specifically mentioning him). I mean the Raptors will land a good player in the draft and they have another on the way from Europe. With those guys and trade assets like the Johnsons, Davis and Calderon's fat expiring contract the Raptors have enough to totally revamp the roster into a team that is better than what the Knicks have right now.

  9. #209
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So then Nash has to guard larger 2 guards?
    That Hill defends pointguards that Nash can't handle isn't something I'm making up here ...

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The numbers are what they are.

    The Raptors did 'less worse' with Calderon off the floor. The Suns did MUCH worse with Nash off the floor.

    Calderon's opponents had a higher PER than him and above NBA average. Nash's opponents had a lower PER than him and a lower than NBA average.

    Calderon had a much lower win percentage compared to Nash.
    I am not saying that Nash isn't the better player; no need to argue that point. I'm not even saying that Calderon is or isn't better on defense (I don't have an opinion on that at this moment). All I wanted to say was that Phoenix does have some twists to make the life of Nash easier on defense in reaction to your statement that "Nash did not have a defensive scheme created to cover his weaknesses".

    To add something: I find Opponent's PER one of the most ambiguous stats. It doesn't even look at who is defending who; if you are a pg, the OppPER is the per of the other pg, period. It's also one of the most noisy stats because of the defense of the whole team.

  10. #210
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    See the thing is, when you take all factors into consideration, the Raptors will be a highly competitive team next season if Nash were to join. Not only that but he would be the leader of the squad. That might mean a lot to him because he's already said he doesn't want to be like the Glove(without specifically mentioning him). I mean the Raptors will land a good player in the draft and they have another on the way from Europe. With those guys and trade assets like the Johnsons, Davis and Calderon's fat expiring contract the Raptors have enough to totally revamp the roster into a team that is better than what the Knicks have right now.
    For Nash to choose Toronto, all those changes may need to be in place before he makes his decision....which would mean Colangelo needs to get on his horse as soon as July 1 rolls around.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #211
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    See the thing is, when you take all factors into consideration, the Raptors will be a highly competitive team next season if Nash were to join. Not only that but he would be the leader of the squad. That might mean a lot to him because he's already said he doesn't want to be like the Glove(without specifically mentioning him). I mean the Raptors will land a good player in the draft and they have another on the way from Europe. With those guys and trade assets like the Johnsons, Davis and Calderon's fat expiring contract the Raptors have enough to totally revamp the roster into a team that is better than what the Knicks have right now.
    Good point. Aside from Miami and Chicago, every other playoff team in the East this year could quite possibly look significantly different next season.

    Indiana - could lose Hibbert
    Orlando - could lose Howard, Reddick
    Atlanta - could trade Smith/Johnson or completely blow it up
    Boston - could lose multiple players or compeltely blow it up
    Philadelphia - could look to shake things up, were up and down this season
    New York - likely no Baron Davis, could look to shake things up or completely blow it up if they decide to trade Melo

    Non-Playoff Teams
    Milwaukee - shook things up at the trade deadline, could lose player and look to shake things up or completely blow it up
    Charlotte - just bad, even if they get the first pick, I don't think they have near the roster Toronto has
    Washington - should be improved, still not great
    Detroit - should be improved, still not great
    New Jersey - just bad, unless they were to re-sign Williams, sign Howard and luck into a top-3 lottery pick, then watch out
    Cleveland - should be improved, still not great

    Toronto - with a healthy/consistent Bargnani, Valanciunas, a top-10 lottery pick, Steve Nash and whatever other players they can add through draft/free agency/trade (with Amir/Davis/JJ/TPE/2 2nd round picks/2013 1st round pick as available assets), they look to be pretty competitive in 2012-13 on paper, heading into the offseason

  12. #212
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    For Nash to choose Toronto, all those changes may need to be in place before he makes his decision....which would mean Colangelo needs to get on his horse as soon as July 1 rolls around.
    Nash coming here prior to Colangelo making a bunch of trades makes more sense for both sides in my opinion. For the Raptors they don't get burned. For Nash he gets to have his input into the moves. I don't think the Raptors go wheeling and dealing so that they might, possibly have a shot at signing Nash. That's not how smart people make business deals in my opinion. Sure, maybe they shore up a couple other positions but they won't move a guy like Calderon without Nash committing.

    Like I mentioned earlier, anybody saying Nash is going to go somewhere where he will be known as a guy trying to ride another star's coattail to a championship is not paying attention to what he's said in interviews in the past few months. To me it sounds like how he wins it is more important to winning it at any costs. Malone and Payton are prime examples of legends who looked to ride other star's might to a championship and failed. In both cases it did not look good on them or their legacy. What's Nash's price to sellout on what he says are his principles? I think there is no price if he's being honest.

  13. #213
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    That Hill defends pointguards that Nash can't handle isn't something I'm making up here ...
    I know you are not. But he has to guard somebody.



    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I am not saying that Nash isn't the better player; no need to argue that point. I'm not even saying that Calderon is or isn't better on defense (I don't have an opinion on that at this moment). All I wanted to say was that Phoenix does have some twists to make the life of Nash easier on defense in reaction to your statement that "Nash did not have a defensive scheme created to cover his weaknesses".
    Just about every team in the league has a defensive specialist who can cover more than their own position. Hill is that guy for Phoenix. My comment about the defensive scheme stands: Casey himself has said exactly the same thing. The defensive schemes this year were focused on supporting Jose.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    To add something: I find Opponent's PER one of the most ambiguous stats. It doesn't even look at who is defending who; if you are a pg, the OppPER is the per of the other pg, period. It's also one of the most noisy stats because of the defense of the whole team.
    Which is why I started with the below quote which was quoted in your initial reply. Say what you will about the stats but they do not support the claim he is a better or even equal defender as Nash - that was my point.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...
    Stats are not everything but they do not support the claims that Nash is a worse defender than Jose (and Nash did not have a defensive scheme created to cover his weaknesses).
    ...

  14. #214
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Nash coming here prior to Colangelo making a bunch of trades makes more sense for both sides in my opinion. For the Raptors they don't get burned. For Nash he gets to have his input into the moves. I don't think the Raptors go wheeling and dealing so that they might, possibly have a shot at signing Nash. That's not how smart people make business deals in my opinion.
    I guess that would depend on how much trust Nash has in Colangelo's word, and his abilities.

    But on the flip side, is it wise to give Nash any decision-making power?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #215
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    But on the flip side, is it wise to give Nash any decision-making power?
    Canada Basketball seemed to think it was ... Not sure why they wouldn't try to leverage Nash's persona and image across the league.
    In Masai we Trust.

  16. #216
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I guess that would depend on how much trust Nash has in Colangelo's word, and his abilities.
    Colangelo drafted Nash. Colangelo pulled a blockbuster trade to get him back. Colangelo built a very strong team around him seemingly overnight. It should be well established that Colangelo respects, values and understands Nash as good, if not better than anyone in the NBA. Nash wasn't the MVP superstar he is now until coming back to Phoenix to play under Bryan Colangelo. He should have the utmost faith in Colangelo. The Raptors are one highly athletic multidimensional SF away from having a similar level of talent to many of those great Suns teams if Nash were to come here. Except in this case they arguably have a coach far better suited for playoff success than what Nash had in Phoenix during their successful years. I think if Nash were to come here he would have Peyton Manning-type freedom on offense. That's highly appealing in itself given the talent on roster and the talent incoming.

  17. #217
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Canada Basketball seemed to think it was ... Not sure why they wouldn't try to leverage Nash's persona and image across the league.
    Yes, but giving a player any semblance of control has the potential to create problems in the locker room. NBA players have big egos.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #218
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Colangelo drafted Nash. Colangelo pulled a blockbuster trade to get him back. Colangelo built a very strong team around him seemingly overnight. It should be well established that Colangelo respects, values and understands Nash as good, if not better than anyone in the NBA. Nash wasn't the MVP superstar he is now until coming back to Phoenix to play under Bryan Colangelo. He should have the utmost faith in Colangelo. The Raptors are one highly athletic multidimensional SF away from having a similar level of talent to many of those great Suns teams if Nash were to come here. Except in this case they arguably have a coach far better suited for playoff success than what Nash had in Phoenix during their successful years. I think if Nash were to come here he would have Peyton Manning-type freedom on offense. That's highly appealing in itself given the talent on roster and the talent incoming.
    Interesting point you bring up about the coaching situation. The Suns' offence suffered mightily when they focused primarily on defence (under Terry Porter).

    Wonder how Casey and Nash would mesh in terms of strategy.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #219
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I considered this and it's why I mentioned how they might give Nash the key and the nav. system so to speak.

  20. #220
    Raptors Republic Starter TheR3dMenace's Avatar
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    Anyone else see a scenario where if Nash comes the Raps pick up Marion in a trade for pennies on the dollar? Dallas is going to be dumping Salary big time to try and get Williams/Howard.

    If you say that makes us old. It doesn't, it just makes us older. The core is still young and young teams lose a lot, especially in the playoffs. Marion is still a baller. If attempts to land a different SF through FA/draft, a Nash-Marion reunion in T.O. might pay short term dividends.

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