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Nash Watch: L.A. bound (#1009)

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  • #91
    What Matt Said re: Nash

    I apologize upfront. I am more of a Raptors fan than an NBA fan since there are only so many hours in a day. I don't know the players and teams (team needs) well enough to comment intelligently on trades etc. But for what it's worth.

    Get Nash for next season. Can the Raps do a sign and Trade with Phoenix? I'm thinking the Suns extend him for three years, at current salary (or with some raises, whatever) first year guaranteed and next two years at his option. That way he may be intrigued enough to give TO a shot without feeling trapped.

    Raps get Kabongo as a rookie PG to continue his mentoring under Nash.

    Raps trade Jose for any upgrade over the current roster, position 1 through 8.

    Raps trade away whoever gets bumped from the Jose trade for a pick in 2013.

    Raps re-up Bayless at some reasonable sum.

    Thinking:

    JV and AB are going to open up the inside like crazy. Pick and rolls are going to be on the menu next year.

    Upgrading any of the spots 1 through 8 through the Jose trade is going to improve the bench, as will bringing in JV (who bumps someone to backup) and as will this years pick (who presumably is good enough to either start at some point or else be a big boost to the bench).

    If Nash decides he doesn't want to stay, Jose is available as a UFA (this could be pointed out to him before the trade with earnest expressions of desire to see him in 2013) and Kabongo has had a year of mentoring with one of the best point guards around.

    If Nash does stay, Jose is still available potentially as a back-up PG at a lower rate and Kabongo is available to continue relieving both Nash and Jose of minutes, extending their potential careers.

    Bayless is available as a two guard off the bench and could work very well with Kabongo (pass first point guard) or Calderon in year two of this deal.

    Summary:
    Immediate upgrade over PG with Nash
    Upgrade over C with JV
    AB plays at PF with less rebounding pressure
    Upgrade over position SG/SF with Jose trade or else Bench improves significantly
    Upgrade over position SG/SF with draft pick (and subsequent trade?) or else Bench improves significantly
    Bayless retained for scoring punch, with no need to retool him into pass first PG

    The two most important positions, center and point guard are improved, pressure on AB is lowered, bench gets a significant injection of talent. That is a playoff bound team with aspirations for semi-finals in three years.

    Key to this is giving Nash the out after one year, which also give the Raps the equivalent of Jose's expiring contract.

    Just my thoughts (with a huge tip of the hat to Matt)

    (Drag this over to the Nash thread?)

    Comment


    • #92
      IMO, this whole "mentoring" idea is bullshit. Everyone has a game that has given them enough success to be drafted into the NBA (even if that game is heavily based on athleticism) How you adapt your game to have success at the nba level is completely on you, I don't think a player can actually help you develop the skill b/c everyone's game is different, if they're a veteran they can probably teach you what it takes to adjust to the nba lifestyle, but that's about it.

      Comment


      • #93
        A couple of points...the Suns extending Nash will have to be done with Nash's agreement (and the intention to trade him to the Raps or other team). Nash has said he wants to explore free agency with the aim to win so this thinking will require a change of heart. The other....Kabongo has I believe decided to stay in school which is probably best for him.

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        • #94
          Nash is old as **** people. Good right now but in 2-=3 years when were ready he is going to see huge declines. Most stupid idea i've ever heard...

          Not to be so blunt but wow, he's a minor upgrade over jose, older, and not what the team needs. Why waste resources on a guy who only real big upside for our team is where he was born.
          Last edited by RNsteve; Sun Apr 1, 2012, 03:36 PM.

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          • #95
            Not to be blunt, but Nash's numbers have hardly declined since his two MVP seasons. "Minor upgrade over jose" is hardly an accurate statement. The team needs a PG who makes others better and one who can also score at a high level. Scores 3 pts more per game, 3 more assists, better 3 pt %, better ft%.

            You are guessing about his "huge declines." He looks after himself better than virtually anyone in the league, and is famous for his off-season conditioning.

            This kind of off-the-cuff response says more about you than it does about my suggestions.

            Comment


            • #96
              Bendit wrote: View Post
              A couple of points...the Suns extending Nash will have to be done with Nash's agreement (and the intention to trade him to the Raps or other team). Nash has said he wants to explore free agency with the aim to win so this thinking will require a change of heart. The other....Kabongo has I believe decided to stay in school which is probably best for him.
              Absolutely done with Nash's consent. that was the idea of including Kabongo in the equation. There is a relationship there. I doubt if another year in school would be better for Kabongo than a year of playing with Nash under Casey.

              Comment


              • #97
                According to yahoo Nash is already eyeing Miami maybe to get a ring or two before the wheels fall off. And hell, for the quality player he is, and for the amount of money he would be asking for, why wouldnt they do it even if he were just a consistent outside threat. If Nash is going anywhere, my bet is on south beach. Phoenix is in shambles and there's no basketball reason he would stay. Toronto might be slightly better and have that "Canadian" thing going for it but at this stage in his career, he's not looking for more drudgery - people want rings no matter what they say and he will always be welcome here so why rush it and spend a year fighting for a second round exit?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Puffer wrote: View Post
                  Not to be blunt, but Nash's numbers have hardly declined since his two MVP seasons. "Minor upgrade over jose" is hardly an accurate statement. The team needs a PG who makes others better and one who can also score at a high level. Scores 3 pts more per game, 3 more assists, better 3 pt %, better ft%.

                  You are guessing about his "huge declines." He looks after himself better than virtually anyone in the league, and is famous for his off-season conditioning.

                  This kind of off-the-cuff response says more about you than it does about my suggestions.
                  Yes because me assuming that at his age he is due for a decline, that he is only remotely better then Jose(not a defensive powerhouse now is he?), and would pretty much demand a decent salary means he's a great fit... think for a second before you keep pushing this nash idea. He is a bad fit for the raptors at this point of the game on almost all fronts.

                  I just don't understand in any way how having him play here would be good for the raptors in 2-3 year+. We are much better targeting a 20-25 year old PG to grow with the team. Only draw would be that he is Canadian, rest of your idea is based around just bad thinking.
                  Last edited by RNsteve; Sun Apr 1, 2012, 05:21 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    akashsingh wrote: View Post
                    IMO, this whole "mentoring" idea is bullshit. Everyone has a game that has given them enough success to be drafted into the NBA (even if that game is heavily based on athleticism) How you adapt your game to have success at the nba level is completely on you, I don't think a player can actually help you develop the skill b/c everyone's game is different, if they're a veteran they can probably teach you what it takes to adjust to the nba lifestyle, but that's about it.
                    Steve has already been mentoring Kabongo. Kabongo has commented on how much it means to him and how much it helps.

                    You just have to look at Steve's own stats to see what kind of improvement is possible. Going from 42% to 53% FG shooting over 10 years. And from 2/1 to 8/1 assist to TO ratio and from .3 pts/min to .5 pt/min in scoring. It wasn't until his third year he even started playing 30 minutes a game. His physical skills haven't improved that much. He was 22 years, 8n months old when he started playing in the NBA. He didn't peak until he had been in the league for 10 years.

                    I think a guy who has improved his game that much, and maintained it at that high a level has something to teach a younger player. Particularly one who has already said he wants to continue to learn from a veteran.

                    Comment


                    • Puffer wrote: View Post
                      Steve has already been mentoring Kabongo. Kabongo has commented on how much it means to him and how much it helps.

                      You just have to look at Steve's own stats to see what kind of improvement is possible. Going from 42% to 53% FG shooting over 10 years. And from 2/1 to 8/1 assist to TO ratio and from .3 pts/min to .5 pt/min in scoring. It wasn't until his third year he even started playing 30 minutes a game. His physical skills haven't improved that much. He was 22 years, 8n months old when he started playing in the NBA. He didn't peak until he had been in the league for 10 years.

                      I think a guy who has improved his game that much, and maintained it at that high a level has something to teach a younger player. Particularly one who has already said he wants to continue to learn from a veteran.
                      But is this worth spending the resources on a player due for a decline by the time the team is ready to make a run? Simply no.

                      Not trying to sound disrespectful or like a broken record but if you consider Kabongo is staying in college for another year..it just is not worth it in any respect.
                      Last edited by RNsteve; Sun Apr 1, 2012, 05:31 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Puffer wrote: View Post
                        Steve has already been mentoring Kabongo. Kabongo has commented on how much it means to him and how much it helps.

                        You just have to look at Steve's own stats to see what kind of improvement is possible. Going from 42% to 53% FG shooting over 10 years. And from 2/1 to 8/1 assist to TO ratio and from .3 pts/min to .5 pt/min in scoring. It wasn't until his third year he even started playing 30 minutes a game. His physical skills haven't improved that much. He was 22 years, 8n months old when he started playing in the NBA. He didn't peak until he had been in the league for 10 years.

                        I think a guy who has improved his game that much, and maintained it at that high a level has something to teach a younger player. Particularly one who has already said he wants to continue to learn from a veteran.
                        8/1 assist to turnover ratio? He has the highest turnover ratio of starting pointguards (on hoopdata) and is averaging over 3,5 turnovers a game. An 8/1 assist to turnover ratio would be outerworldly.

                        Comment


                        • I said he went from 2/1 to 8/1 over a ten year period, and he did. When he started, he was getting 2 assists to 1 T/O per game. Ten years later he was 11.1 assists to 1.4 T/O per game. 11.1/1.4 gives you 8/1. I simplified the numbers to make the ratio clear. Outerworldly maybe, but those were his numbers and what he accomplished by working at his trade and improving every year.

                          I used his career stats so readers of the thread could "...see what kind of improvement is possible." I thought the meaning was clear within the context of that paragraph.

                          Comment


                          • Puffer wrote: View Post
                            I said he went from 2/1 to 8/1 over a ten year period, and he did. When he started, he was getting 2 assists to 1 T/O per game. Ten years later he was 11.1 assists to 1.4 T/O per game. 11.1/1.4 gives you 8/1. I simplified the numbers to make the ratio clear. Outerworldly maybe, but those were his numbers and what he accomplished by working at his trade and improving every year.

                            I used his career stats so readers of the thread could "...see what kind of improvement is possible." I thought the meaning was clear within the context of that paragraph.
                            You simplified the stats by rounding down 3,6 to 1,4. Like I tried to say your stats are wrong. A 8/1 ratio would mean he is a son of Zeus, that should triggered a statcheck I'd think.

                            Comment


                            • Here is Nash's rating from 82games. As they say "The main components of the 'Simple Ratings' are a production measure (a variant of John Hollinger's PER rating) for a player's own stats versus the counterpart player on the other team while he is on the court, as well as a simple on court/off court plus minus.

                              Rating
                              MIA James +18.0
                              LAC Paul +15.9
                              MIA Wade +14.9
                              ORL Howard +12.7
                              OKC Durant +11.1
                              ORL Anderson +10.6
                              PHO Nash +10.6

                              Nash is tied for 6th in this measure of his effectiveness against opponents, in terms of on court production. How much of a drop off would you expect to see in two years?

                              The first Raptor in the list comes in at 53nd place. Calderon comes in at 140. I would suggest that being Canadian might be some draw, but this kind of production is far more important. You might note that I suggest bringing in a young point guard for Nash to groom, and I advocate bringing Calderon back. When three years are done, and his production drops off, other options will be available. So I am targeting a 20-25 year old point guard to grow with the team.

                              Maybe go back and read the orignial post, and read Matt's original post.
                              Last edited by Puffer; Sun Apr 1, 2012, 09:22 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Actually after going back and reading Matt's original post I see I added very little to his points, other than the thought of a three year contract, with two years being the players option. I think giving Nash the chance to walk away if he doesn't like how things are going would be a key.

                                I think I read that he lives in New York, so he'd be a little closer to home.No big deal, but no jet lag, no time difference for phone calls if true.

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