Everything Trade Deadline: Lesson learned today? Don't trust Casey (462)

[CalgaryRapsFan]

With rebuilding teams, there is no reason to hold onto aging players who eat up large portions of the cap.

The Spurs run with Duncan because they're championship contenders. The same with the Lakers and Kobe, or Dallas and Dirk/Kidd.

But it makes very little sense for the Raptors to hold onto Calderon today if they can get good pieces in return. This rebuild is far from one or two moves away from completion. The PG spot is a hole that will eventually need to be filled.

If the Lakers were in the lottery the past 3 seasons, I guarantee they'd be looking to move Kobe as they begin the rebuild too.

Anyways, back to the original point. It's entirely possible that Calderon might play at a high level for 5 more years. But how can anyone confidently say it'll happen?

I disagree with you, because PG is a much different position than any other. If I were to pick a position to have a veteran presence, it would be PG every time. PG are the floor generals who run the team on the court, get other players involved, make other players better and can be a calming influence, while dictating the flow of the game.

I agree that it can't be guaranteed that Calderon has 5 good years left, but I would strongly argue that he has at least a couple good years left, given his style of play. His game isn't dependent on speed or athleticism as much as some players; he plays with his head and court vision, which deteriorate at a much slower pace.

I also don't see a lot of viable options to replace Calderon with. Some options are very unlikely (I'm looking at you Matt & Nash! lol) while others are not likely to be much of an upgrade in at least the next year or two (ie: Dragic, any PG is this year's draft). Some other names mentioned as potential replacements might be good players, but aren't nearly the facilitator that Calderon is (ie: Jennings).

I am very open to trading him, given his age, salary and alleged trade value, but this young Raptors team won't be nearly as good next season without a legit pass-first floor general running the show. Without a viable replacement, I think a lot of people will realize just how effective Calderon was AFTER he's gone.

[mcHAPPY]

hahahaha if Tim is to Bargnani, Matt is to Calderon staying in Toronto!

Im not sure if i need to apologize, but i figured none of us here is really an expert on the Raptors, or player's conditioning or what not, so everything that gets posted is pretty much an "In my opinion" type thing. I thought it was a given.

Its pretty much the same argument with Bargnani, if he sustains improvement, then we're all happy, if he regresses, trade him. And that always been my contention, you cant predict the future, and there's always a possibility the future is not written by history. Calderon maybe injured next year, he may play another 8 years like Nash.

In my personal opinion, my personal belief, Calderon can still play efficiently with minimal to no games missed within the next 5 years. But i could be wrong. Im no expert! hahaha just kidding matt.

I thought I had been clear I don't hate Calderon. I've been clear I would like to have him as part of the team moving forward if he had proper rest and training/maintenance in the summer. I've provided links to his injuries giving type, time, and games missed over the years after summer national team commitments. If Calderon quit playing for Spain every summer, I'd see no reason to trade him whatsoever. Even Nash stopped playing for Canada prior to 30 years of age - he recognized he couldn't continue representing his country and earning his pay cheque (he has said that, I'm too lazy to go find the source, so call me on it if I am wrong).

There is a big difference between an all-star talent entering his prime and an oft-injured, average-to-slightly-above-average NBA PG leaving his prime. Bargnani detractors have always hated his style of game and questioned his heart, hustle, and intensity. I don't question any of that with Calderon - I question his body in light of his desire to put his own interests (representing his country) versus my interests as a fan (the Toronto Raptors). Until 1 month ago, Calderon had no trade value whatsoever. Suggesting a trade to any American reporter/analyst with Calderon going out was subject to great ridicule. Now, not so much. Bargnani will always have trade value because he is a 7-footer who can score in a variety of ways. Calderon has shown he is one tweaked hamstring/groin/hip away from having no value to the Raptors - so trade him now.

The difference between the crystal ball argument of 'he may get injured' vs. 'he may not get injured' is Calderon has not shown he is able to play international competition in the summer and return to an NBA season remaining free of overuse and fatigue injuries - until this season when he had 4 months of rest, of course. Lets see how he holds up after just 5-6 weeks off before the start of training camp and 3 NBA games a week. There is a possibility that will never happen again but the odds do not support it based on history, in my opinion.

I do appreciate your opinion. By no means do I think your opinion is invalid or unworthy of consideration. What I would appreciate though is one piece of evidence to support the opinion. Obviously you can't do that because you've made it clear it is only your personal belief. My argument is only my belief as well and, despite the evidence to support it, it remains only a belief - so there you go.

We'll have to agree to disagree but, just like the international competition argument was never addressed, Nilanka had a very good point that has not been addressed either:

Ok, we'll agree to disagree on Calderon's perceived injury risk. But let's simplify the discussion a bit.

Why does a rebuilding Raptors team need to hold onto a 30 year old player who isn't considered a superstar?

I can't think of one reason that outweighs the benefits of cap relief/draft picks that we'd gain in a Calderon trade.

Nash, Allen, and Kobe are all hall of fame players. Calderon is not even an all-star, never has been, and far from it in fact.

Forgetting contract, forgetting injury history, this alone is merit to move on, in my opinion, if a trade of value is out there to be had. Based on the value Raptors fans have on Jose, there must be a great deal out there - I hope it is made.

[mcHAPPY]

I disagree with you, because PG is a much different position than any other. If I were to pick a position to have a veteran presence, it would be PG every time. PG are the floor generals who run the team on the court, get other players involved, make other players better and can be a calming influence, while dictating the flow of the game.

I agree that it can't be guaranteed that Calderon has 5 good years left, but I would strongly argue that he has at least a couple good years left, given his style of play. His game isn't dependent on speed or athleticism as much as some players; he plays with his head and court vision, which deteriorate at a much slower pace.

I also don't see a lot of viable options to replace Calderon with. Some options are very unlikely (I'm looking at you Matt & Nash! lol) while others are not likely to be much of an upgrade in at least the next year or two (ie: Dragic, any PG is this year's draft). Some other names mentioned as potential replacements might be good players, but aren't nearly the facilitator that Calderon is (ie: Jennings).

I am very open to trading him, given his age, salary and alleged trade value, but this young Raptors team won't be nearly as good next season without a legit pass-first floor general running the show. Without a viable replacement, I think a lot of people will realize just how effective Calderon was AFTER he's gone.

Time will tell. Legacy, money, and familiar faces are tough to turn down. If Doug Smith is putting it out there on his blog citing discussions at all-star weekend, then there is more to it than just my wet dream.

Don't forget my argument of obtaining Nash stems from losing Jose's contract and trading Calderon always returns a pick to draft a PG (preferably Kabongo) to back up Nash for 2-3 seasons.

[Nilanka]

Time will tell. Legacy, money, and familiar faces are tough to turn down. If Doug Smith is putting it out there on his blog citing discussions at all-star weekend, then there is more to it than just my wet dream.

Don't forget my argument of obtaining Nash stems from losing Jose's contract and trading Calderon always returns a pick to draft a PG (preferably Kabongo) to back up Nash for 2-3 seasons.

I jumped in the car late, so I missed some of the discussion, but I caught Jack Armstrong on Primetime with Bob McCown last night discussing the possibility of Nash ending his career in Toronto. They cited many of the reasons Matt has mentioned here in the past.

The idea isn't as far-fetched as some think it is.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I thought I had been clear I don't hate Calderon. I've been clear I would like to have him as part of the team moving forward if he had proper rest and training/maintenance in the summer. I've provided links to his injuries giving type, time, and games missed over the years after summer national team commitments. If Calderon quit playing for Spain every summer, I'd see no reason to trade him whatsoever. Even Nash stopped playing for Canada prior to 30 years of age - he recognized he couldn't continue representing his country and earning his pay cheque (he has said that, I'm too lazy to go find the source, so call me on it if I am wrong).

There is a big difference between an all-star talent entering his prime and an oft-injured, average-to-slightly-above-average NBA PG leaving his prime. Bargnani detractors have always hated his style of game and questioned his heart, hustle, and intensity. I don't question any of that with Calderon - I question his body in light of his desire to put his own interests (representing his country) versus my interests as a fan (the Toronto Raptors). Until 1 month ago, Calderon had no trade value whatsoever. Suggesting a trade to any American reporter/analyst with Calderon going out was subject to great ridicule. Now, not so much. Bargnani will always have trade value because he is a 7-footer who can score in a variety of ways. Calderon has shown he is one tweaked hamstring/groin/hip away from having no value to the Raptors - so trade him now.

The difference between the crystal ball argument of 'he may get injured' vs. 'he may not get injured' is Calderon has not shown he is able to play international competition in the summer and return to an NBA season remaining free of overuse and fatigue injuries - until this season when he had 4 months of rest, of course. Lets see how he holds up after just 5-6 weeks off before the start of training camp and 3 NBA games a week. There is a possibility that will never happen again but the odds do not support it based on history, in my opinion.

I do appreciate your opinion. By no means do I think your opinion is invalid or unworthy of consideration. What I would appreciate though is one piece of evidence to support the opinion. Obviously you can't do that because you've made it clear it is only your personal belief. My argument is only my belief as well and, despite the evidence to support it, it remains only a belief - so there you go.

We'll have to agree to disagree but, just like the international competition argument was never addressed, Nilanka had a very good point that has not been addressed either:



Nash, Allen, and Kobe are all hall of fame players. Calderon is not even an all-star, never has been, and far from it in fact.

Forgetting contract, forgetting injury history, this alone is merit to move on, in my opinion, if a trade of value is out there to be had. Based on the value Raptors fans have on Jose, there must be a great deal out there - I hope it is made.

Noted. But like i said in my earlier posts, and to what CalgaryRapsFan alluded to, what Calderon does, his style of play fits the Raptors system, and fits the players that are currently, and most likely will be the core of this team. Its not about him being an all-star or what not, but rather what he brings to this team.

[Nilanka]

Noted. But like i said in my earlier posts, and to what CalgaryRapsFan alluded to, what Calderon does, his style of play fits the Raptors system, and fits the players that are currently, and most likely will be the core of this team. Its not about him being an all-star or what not, but rather what he brings to this team.

tbihis, I get the impression that you're a "glass half full" kinda guy. It seems like you would always prefer to give the player the benefit of the doubt, until it's proven time and time again that he's not working in Toronto.

If that isn't a fair assessment, is there anyone on this roster (who plays significant minutes) who you think isn't a good fit today, or in the future?

[mcHAPPY]

Noted. But like i said in my earlier posts, and to what CalgaryRapsFan alluded to, what Calderon does, his style of play fits the Raptors system, and fits the players that are currently, and most likely will be the core of this team. Its not about him being an all-star or what not, but rather what he brings to this team.

The current Raptors team is a .300 team and won only 22 games last season. I'm not sure we can say that the system or the current players are worth keeping. In terms of what he brings to the team, my argument is the same - .300 and 22 wins last season.


There has also been the argument that Calderon makes players around him better. I don't agree. ED and DeMar's struggles to start the year certainly weren't alleviated by Calderon. I don't think he makes JJ better nor Barbosa. Kleiza? No. Magloire? No. Bayless? No. Forbes? No one knows. He has certainly made Gray and Amir look good due to being on the receiving end of the pick and roll.


I think Calderon, overall, is an average NBA PG. He excels at certain things but he struggles at things as well - in the end he is average. If a trade can be had to secure assets for him and create an opportunity to get better sooner, you have to let him go given national team, injury history, and contract.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

tbihis, I get the impression that you're a "glass half full" kinda guy. It seems like you would always prefer to give the player the benefit of the doubt, until it's proven time and time again that he's not working in Toronto.

If that isn't a fair assessment, is there anyone on this roster (who plays significant minutes) who you think isn't a good fit today, or in the future?

I think that is a fair assessment. I like to think in the ways of "it isnt broken, dont fix it" mentality. Correct me if im wrong, but the way you think is, if it worked in the past and not working now, get rid of it, even though it "could" still work given the proper way of using it. And thats exactly what i think of Calderon. Say the Raptors got rid of Bargnani when everybody was voicing their displeasure on his lack of defense, rebounding, etc. And then Bargnani started playing defense and rebounding as what he is doing now, but with a different team? If Calderon is traded based on "potential injury risk", gets replaced with another PG who may or may not work out, where does that leave the Raptors? Let me point out that the Raps have already 2 high picks that have not really panned out according to expectations. There's another pick coming and if Calderon is traded, another new PG will be expected to work with the style of Bargnani, Amir, JJ, Bayless, etc. Thats 4 projects. Plus an FA coming in.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

The current Raptors team is a .300 team and won only 22 games last season. I'm not sure we can say that the system or the current players are worth keeping. In terms of what he brings to the team, my argument is the same - .300 and 22 wins last season.


There has also been the argument that Calderon makes players around him better. I don't agree. ED and DeMar's struggles to start the year certainly weren't alleviated by Calderon. I don't think he makes JJ better nor Barbosa. Kleiza? No. Magloire? No. Bayless? No. Forbes? No one knows. He has certainly made Gray and Amir look good due to being on the receiving end of the pick and roll.


I think Calderon, overall, is an average NBA PG. He excels at certain things but he struggles at things as well - in the end he is average. If a trade can be had to secure assets for him and create an opportunity to get better sooner, you have to let him go given national team, injury history, and contract.

I think you're undervaluing Calderon just a little. If he had teammates who could more consistently knock down the open looks they get when Calderon feeds them the ball throughout the season (ie: Butler, JJ, DD especially), Calderon could easily be averaging 12-15 assists per game.

I think if he played on a more talented team, he would be viewed as a distributor, along the same line as Kidd and Nash. It's Calderon's ball movement and ability to find the open man that I look at when saying he makes his teammates better... it's up to them to actually convert his passes to baskets though.

If we could trade Calderon for a 1st round pick that panned out and signed Nash to replace him, I would do it in a heartbeat. I just worry that the more likely scenario is that whatever pick is acquired would wind up being a backup/rotation/project type player at best and the Raps wouldn't be able to sign Nash or any other equivalent PG, leaving fans looking back on the Calderon trade as a very poor move (especially if he goes on to prosper for even 3-5+ more years on a good team).

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The current Raptors team is a .300 team and won only 22 games last season. I'm not sure we can say that the system or the current players are worth keeping. In terms of what he brings to the team, my argument is the same - .300 and 22 wins last season.


There has also been the argument that Calderon makes players around him better. I don't agree. ED and DeMar's struggles to start the year certainly weren't alleviated by Calderon. I don't think he makes JJ better nor Barbosa. Kleiza? No. Magloire? No. Bayless? No. Forbes? No one knows. He has certainly made Gray and Amir look good due to being on the receiving end of the pick and roll.


I think Calderon, overall, is an average NBA PG. He excels at certain things but he struggles at things as well - in the end he is average. If a trade can be had to secure assets for him and create an opportunity to get better sooner, you have to let him go given national team, injury history, and contract.

Well, the team is IMO, in semi-rebuild mode, and i say "semi" because i believe the team is only 2-3 players away from being a playoff team. JV, plus the high draft pick plus the FA, if all goes well, will result in a playoff team.

Its a .300 team because their number one scoring option has missed 19 games. Theyre a .300 team because the supposed 2nd best scorer is averaging 15pts a game. Theyre a .300 team because the subs (davis, Amir, JJ) are avging less than 10pts a game.

Does it make you wonder that a team severely lacking in scoring, has a PG who still manages to average close to 10 asts per game? And you dont think he makes this team better? Its not Calderon not able to make Demar or Ed better, its them not making shots.

Again, i am not saying he is all star material nor is he among the top 5 PGs in the NBA, but IMO, he is the PG that the Raptor's core needs.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The current Raptors team is a .300 team and won only 22 games last season. I'm not sure we can say that the system or the current players are worth keeping. In terms of what he brings to the team, my argument is the same - .300 and 22 wins last season.


There has also been the argument that Calderon makes players around him better. I don't agree. ED and DeMar's struggles to start the year certainly weren't alleviated by Calderon. I don't think he makes JJ better nor Barbosa. Kleiza? No. Magloire? No. Bayless? No. Forbes? No one knows. He has certainly made Gray and Amir look good due to being on the receiving end of the pick and roll.


I think Calderon, overall, is an average NBA PG. He excels at certain things but he struggles at things as well - in the end he is average. If a trade can be had to secure assets for him and create an opportunity to get better sooner, you have to let him go given national team, injury history, and contract.

Correct me if im wrong, but i think your assessment of Calderon being an average PG (but it seems to me you think of him as more of below average but, thats my opinion) is because of his lack of scoring. I also think thats one Jose's few flaws. His defensive rating has tremendously improved from last season, from 114 to 107. I think he needs to risk more on getting steals tho.

[Nilanka]

I think that is a fair assessment. I like to think in the ways of "it isnt broken, dont fix it" mentality. Correct me if im wrong, but the way you think is, if it worked in the past and not working now, get rid of it, even though it "could" still work given the proper way of using it. And thats exactly what i think of Calderon. Say the Raptors got rid of Bargnani when everybody was voicing their displeasure on his lack of defense, rebounding, etc. And then Bargnani started playing defense and rebounding as what he is doing now, but with a different team? If Calderon is traded based on "potential injury risk", gets replaced with another PG who may or may not work out, where does that leave the Raptors? Let me point out that the Raps have already 2 high picks that have not really panned out according to expectations. There's another pick coming and if Calderon is traded, another new PG will be expected to work with the style of Bargnani, Amir, JJ, Bayless, etc. Thats 4 projects. Plus an FA coming in.

I try to think of each situation differently, and attempt to factor in the past, the present, contractual obligation, age, and team personnel into the equation. Based on this, I don't think Calderon should be treated like an untouchable. He will soon be past his prime, and I hope he isn't in Toronto when the decline begins.

Players are like stocks. Sell high, especially if he's not integral...and most especially if we're not winning.

As for Bargnani, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he's a changed man. But for the sake of argument, if he was traded, and turned into the next Dirk, would it really matter how well he's playing if the Raptors were an improved team from the pieces we received?

Generally speaking, I like the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra. But this team is as broken as one can get, and therefore needs a lot of fixing

[mcHAPPY]

Correct me if im wrong, but i think your assessment of Calderon being an average PG (but it seems to me you think of him as more of below average but, thats my opinion) is because of his lack of scoring. I also think thats one Jose's few flaws. His defensive rating has tremendously improved from last season, from 114 to 107. I think he needs to risk more on getting steals tho.

You are wrong. I clearly stated I consider Jose to be, overall, average to slightly above average.

[ceez]

Oh my god make this thread stop

[mcHAPPY]

Jack Armstrong expects the Raptors to sit tight:

RAPTORS: Only guy that could be moved is Leandro Barbosa if GM Bryan Colangelo gets a great offer for the pending free-agent. He could help a contender. Unless Raps get blown away, I think they sit tight and accumulate cap space for the summer.

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