View Poll Results: As the trade deadline approaches, what do you hope the Raptors do?

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  • Major change(s)

    13 24.07%
  • Minor tweak(s)

    36 66.67%
  • Do nothing until the off season.

    5 9.26%
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Thread: Everything Trade Deadline: Lesson learned today? Don't trust Casey (462)

  1. #221
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Get ready for 14 more! haha
    Don't remind me, sigh.
    @jerboat

  2. #222
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    They're similar in terms of this discussion though. That is, how to deal with a contract at the height of its value.

    The difference with Bosh's situation is that I personally believe Colangelo wanted him to re-sign. But in Calderon's case, it seems obvious that Colangelo doesn't see him as our long-term PG.

    As for the quality of the draft, I heard about some scouts recent opinions, but I wouldn't call it a league-wide consensus opinion. There is still a TON of college ball left to be played before any concluding statements can be made. But based on the influence of the lockout alone, it's fair to assume that the 2012 draft will be deeper than 2011 and 2013.
    They aren't even remotely the same!

    Bosh was an expiring contract looking for max money, who wanted out of Toronto (I don't care what he or BC or anybody else said, if you believed he was going to stay you're out of your mind, which is why I wanted to trade him the offseason before his final season in a Raptors uniform).

    Calderon has another year left on his contract and would very likely re-sign with the Raptors after next season for a cheaper contract than his current one, while being a loyal teammate throughout his tenure regardless of the crap (ie: all the TJ, Jack, Bayless starting controversies, essentially being traded once and dealing with rumors and calls from 'fans' to be amnestied this offseason) he's been forced to deal with.

    100% different situations, aside from the fact that BC is mulling potential trade options, which could be said about any player on any roster.

  3. #223
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    why does everyone think Jose would resign for cheap? did he say something to that effect? genuine question.

    i think he'd sign with a contender for cheap, but i dunno about here.
    @jerboat

  4. #224
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    They aren't even remotely the same!

    Bosh was an expiring contract looking for max money, who wanted out of Toronto (I don't care what he or BC or anybody else said, if you believed he was going to stay you're out of your mind, which is why I wanted to trade him the offseason before his final season in a Raptors uniform).

    Calderon has another year left on his contract and would very likely re-sign with the Raptors after next season for a cheaper contract than his current one, while being a loyal teammate throughout his tenure regardless of the crap (ie: all the TJ, Jack, Bayless starting controversies, essentially being traded once and dealing with rumors and calls from 'fans' to be amnestied this offseason) he's been forced to deal with.

    100% different situations, aside from the fact that BC is mulling potential trade options, which could be said about any player on any roster.
    I wasn't referring to Bosh's final season.

    Regardless, I'll say it again. I don't want us to lose a valuable asset for nothing, like we did with Bosh. That's where the comparison starts and ends.

    If a decent offer comes along, it would be irresponsible for Colangelo not to seriously consider it, especially with the knowledge that Calderon isn't a core piece. I personally think Calderon is worth a top-20 pick.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #225
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    why does everyone think Jose would resign for cheap? did he say something to that effect? genuine question.

    i think he'd sign with a contender for cheap, but i dunno about here.
    Nobody knows if he'll sign for cheap or not, with any team. So banking on him doing so makes very little sense to me.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #226
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If a decent offer comes along, it would be irresponsible for Colangelo not to seriously consider it, especially with the knowledge that Calderon isn't a core piece. I personally think Calderon is worth a top-20 pick.
    We're not saying he's NOT worth a Top-20 pick. We're saying he's worth FAR more.
    If a Top-20 pick is all BC can get for Jose before the trade deadline, I personally think it'd be irresponsible of him to take it.
    In Masai we Trust.

  7. #227
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I wasn't referring to Bosh's final season.

    Regardless, I'll say it again. I don't want us to lose a valuable asset for nothing, like we did with Bosh. That's where the comparison starts and ends.

    If a decent offer comes along, it would be irresponsible for Colangelo not to seriously consider it, especially with the knowledge that Calderon isn't a core piece. I personally think Calderon is worth a top-20 pick.
    I am so torn.

    On one hand I fully agree with the idea of trading Calderon for cap relief and a 1st round pick.

    On the other hand, if we get a young PG via the draft, free agency or trade, I think Calderon would be an ideal mentor, in addition to being a valuable contributor for at least a few more seasons. He is also a very calming influence and on-court leader, especially for such a young team.

    All I can say, is that if BC does trade him for a mid-late 1st round pick and cap space, that draft pick better pan out for the long-term and somebody useful better be acquired using the cap space, or else he will get roasted!

  8. #228
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I am so torn.

    On one hand I fully agree with the idea of trading Calderon for cap relief and a 1st round pick.

    On the other hand, if we get a young PG via the draft, free agency or trade, I think Calderon would be an ideal mentor, in addition to being a valuable contributor for at least a few more seasons. He is also a very calming influence and on-court leader, especially for such a young team.

    All I can say, is that if BC does trade him for a mid-late 1st round pick and cap space, that draft pick better pan out for the long-term and somebody useful better be acquired using the cap space, or else he will get roasted!
    Colangelo probably would get roasted, but it wouldn't be worse than trading Bosh for JJ and Bayless...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #229
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    We're not saying he's NOT worth a Top-20 pick. We're saying he's worth FAR more.
    If a Top-20 pick is all BC can get for Jose before the trade deadline, I personally think it'd be irresponsible of him to take it.
    I guess my value of Calderon is derived from the assumption that he's playing above his capabilities right now.

    Also, it's been noted many times that Colangelo wants to "hit the ground running" next season (who knows if that's still true or not). But if true, doing so is made a lot easier without $10 million tied up by a non-core player.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #230
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    We're not saying he's NOT worth a Top-20 pick. We're saying he's worth FAR more.
    If a Top-20 pick is all BC can get for Jose before the trade deadline, I personally think it'd be irresponsible of him to take it.
    Calderon is worth more than a top-20 pick, however its not just a top-20 pick that would come back. The right move would give Toronto that pick, plus a lot more cap space. That cap space can help them go after a guy like Batum and/or help make some lop-sided trades in Toronto's favour.

    I'd trade Calderon for Batum and a top-20 pick.

    We'd then have some extra cap space (with Barbosa and Bayless' expiring contracts) to go after a guy like DJ Augustin, or take a flyer on someone like Dragic for a year or two while we look for a permanent PG for the future.

    I wouldn't be upset if Calderon was a Raptor next year. But if we were offered a top-20 pick and cap space for him, I'd take it.

  11. #231
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I am so torn.

    On one hand I fully agree with the idea of trading Calderon for cap relief and a 1st round pick.

    On the other hand, if we get a young PG via the draft, free agency or trade, I think Calderon would be an ideal mentor, in addition to being a valuable contributor for at least a few more seasons. He is also a very calming influence and on-court leader, especially for such a young team.

    All I can say, is that if BC does trade him for a mid-late 1st round pick and cap space, that draft pick better pan out for the long-term and somebody useful better be acquired using the cap space, or else he will get roasted!
    The last paragraph has been my contention on the "trade calderon" battlecry.

    Calderon fits the current system. Even if you get a good PG in the draft, it doesnt guarantee that the PG will fit the current system, why get rid of a piece thats already working? And the current system is most likely here to stay since Casey is being short of paraded within the streets of Toronto, Bargnani getting a new leash on life and Demar, JJ and Amir/Davis most likely not going anywhere. I think Calderon still has a good 5 years in him, and within that 5 years, the rebuild should be completed. Why is there an ongoing fetish on picks that have no guarantees anyways? In Jose, you have a guaranteed healthy pass-first PG, a positive influence in the locker room and veteran leader on the floor. And IMO, he will re-sign with the Raps for a lower salary. No doubt. The guy always speaks highly of the organization and his teammates and has won many championships in Europe. I dont think he really craves a championship in the NBA to go out on a limb and sign with a contender. If he wins a ring with the Raps, thats a bonus for him, IMO.

    And i agree, if they do get a PG down the road, he can definitely be a good mentor.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Mar 1st, 2012 at 04:36 PM.

  12. #232
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    at this stage of the rebuild, with jose's health/age, i think its almost worth it just for the cap space. now, im not saying jose isn't worth it to the franchise and don't attack me like i just kicked your puppy, im just saying what are the chances we're contending in the next couple years? realistically? especially if we come away from the draft without a top talent. yes jose would be a great mentor for a young pg if we drafted/signed one, but so would a guy like andre miller. and that's at a fraction of the cost.

    the point is, what are you really holding onto him for? we're not winning a championship next year, or the year after. trade him to a contenderish team now, HOPEFULLY get a pick or talent back and roll those dice.

    if you love something set it free
    @jerboat

  13. #233
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I am so torn.

    On one hand I fully agree with the idea of trading Calderon for cap relief and a 1st round pick.

    On the other hand, if we get a young PG via the draft, free agency or trade, I think Calderon would be an ideal mentor, in addition to being a valuable contributor for at least a few more seasons. He is also a very calming influence and on-court leader, especially for such a young team.

    All I can say, is that if BC does trade him for a mid-late 1st round pick and cap space, that draft pick better pan out for the long-term and somebody useful better be acquired using the cap space, or else he will get roasted!

    Is Calderon a good mentor though? I haven't seen it. Especially this year with Bayless. I think the idea of mentorship in the NBA is over rated. I think certain guys can do it - like Nash or Garnett. But to say Calderon would be an ideal mentor for a young PG may be wishful thinking.

    The only reason I'd want to keep Calderon is if there is no other PG option that BC likes going into next year or the year after.. ie, he'd consider Calderon part of the core. The guy is 30 years old, and there are some PG's that can play a long time (like Kidd, Nash, Miller, or even Carter), and despite his injury history - he may be able to play for another 4 or 5 years at a high level. His athleticism has never been part of his repertoire.

    I'd personally like to go in a different direction.. but that's just me.

  14. #234
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I guess my value of Calderon is derived from the assumption that he's playing above his capabilities right now.

    Also, it's been noted many times that Colangelo wants to "hit the ground running" next season (who knows if that's still true or not). But if true, doing so is made a lot easier without $10 million tied up by a non-core player.
    Calderon starting at PG is much more "hitting the ground running" than having Bayless or some rookie running the team... Bayless would be more along the lines of "running the team INTO the ground". That's the conundrum. Without a legit PG, the team is sunk from the start.

  15. #235
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Calderon is worth more than a top-20 pick, however its not just a top-20 pick that would come back. The right move would give Toronto that pick, plus a lot more cap space. That cap space can help them go after a guy like Batum and/or help make some lop-sided trades in Toronto's favour.

    I'd trade Calderon for Batum and a top-20 pick.

    We'd then have some extra cap space (with Barbosa and Bayless' expiring contracts) to go after a guy like DJ Augustin, or take a flyer on someone like Dragic for a year or two while we look for a permanent PG for the future.

    I wouldn't be upset if Calderon was a Raptor next year. But if we were offered a top-20 pick and cap space for him, I'd take it.
    That's the thing though: you're NOT trading Calderon for a top-20 and Batum. You're trading him for a top-20 and the HOPE that you MIGHT sign Batum. That's a huge risk to take, when you might end up without Calderon, without Batum, without a legit starting PG, and with an extra $4-5M burning a hole in your pocket as you peruse the free agency ranks that include guys like Mayo, Beasley, Kaman... all of whom are going to want premium money to come to Toronto and wouldn't be remotely worth not having Calderon playing the point for one more year.

    People here get way too into Trade Machine/NBA2K12 roster moves. You don't speculate that wildly when you're actually managing a team. Moves have to make sense in the big picture, not just on a one-for-one basis.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  16. #236
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Is Calderon a good mentor though? I haven't seen it. Especially this year with Bayless. I think the idea of mentorship in the NBA is over rated. I think certain guys can do it - like Nash or Garnett. But to say Calderon would be an ideal mentor for a young PG may be wishful thinking.

    The only reason I'd want to keep Calderon is if there is no other PG option that BC likes going into next year or the year after.. ie, he'd consider Calderon part of the core. The guy is 30 years old, and there are some PG's that can play a long time (like Kidd, Nash, Miller, or even Carter), and despite his injury history - he may be able to play for another 4 or 5 years at a high level. His athleticism has never been part of his repertoire.

    I'd personally like to go in a different direction.. but that's just me.
    If Calderon had a young pass-first PG, fresh out of college, with a good head on his shoulder, who was willing to learn the position from a proven veteran, I think he could be very influencial in a positive way. The problem with Bayless seems to be that he already thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, so I put that more on him than on Calderon.

    Again, I would be fine trading him, but I get the feeling BC is gun shy about pulling the trigger on a Calderon deal, without having a legit starting PG in the fold (and no, Bayless sure ain't it!).

  17. #237
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Calderon starting at PG is much more "hitting the ground running" than having Bayless or some rookie running the team... Bayless would be more along the lines of "running the team INTO the ground". That's the conundrum. Without a legit PG, the team is sunk from the start.
    Having Nash starting at PG would be like starting a foot race with the classic, "Hey everybody! Look over there!" as you then take off the other way.

    That would be 'hitting the ground running' I'd love to see.

  18. #238
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    That's the thing though: you're NOT trading Calderon for a top-20 and Batum. You're trading him for a top-20 and the HOPE that you MIGHT sign Batum. That's a huge risk to take, when you might end up without Calderon, without Batum, without a legit starting PG, and with an extra $4-5M burning a hole in your pocket as you peruse the free agency ranks that include guys like Mayo, Beasley, Kaman... all of whom are going to want premium money to come to Toronto and wouldn't be remotely worth not having Calderon playing the point for one more year.

    People here get way too into Trade Machine/NBA2K12 roster moves. You don't speculate that wildly when you're actually managing a team. Moves have to make sense in the big picture, not just on a one-for-one basis.

    Haven't you been warned about these rational, well-thought posts before? C'mon man.











    jk

  19. #239
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Having Nash starting at PG would be like starting a foot race with the classic, "Hey everybody! Look over there!" as you then take off the other way.

    That would be 'hitting the ground running' I'd love to see.
    lol well played, sir, well played.

    That's BC's risk though... if he were to get a guy like Kabongo with a mid-late 1st rounder and be able to use the cap space to sign a guy like Nash, Batum or Mayo, then he's laughing. If the pick is a bust and no big FA signs here, then the deal looks awful and the Raps are left without a legit starting PG.

  20. #240
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I guess my value of Calderon is derived from the assumption that he's playing above his capabilities right now.
    I don't understand this.

    If he's doing it already, he's clearly capable of doing it. And he's been doing it ALL season.
    A season which he has spent generally healthy.


    And as for 'hitting the ground running', I understood this simply to mean that he'd like to be in "Time to Win" mode by next season, as opposed to "Kicking the Tires and seeing what we've got".
    I'm not sure how not having Calderon is beneficial to this.

    In Calderon we KNOW what we've got. And thats a Legit Starting Point Guard.
    Trade him away and we're not left with much.

    Or as Jimmie put it, we're left HOPING and PRAYING that someone signs with us and not the other 15 teams that will have money. Or that our Top-20 pick pans out into a Legit Starter.
    Either of which is Gamble.
    Last edited by Joey; Thu Mar 1st, 2012 at 06:42 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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