Everything Trade Deadline: Lesson learned today? Don't trust Casey (462)

[Matt52]

I guess my value of Calderon is derived from the assumption that he's playing above his capabilities right now.

Also, it's been noted many times that Colangelo wants to "hit the ground running" next season (who knows if that's still true or not). But if true, doing so is made a lot easier without $10 million tied up by a non-core player.

Personally I think Calderon is playing to his abilities when healthy.


I don't doubt his ability. I doubt his body.

[Nilanka]

Personally I think Calderon is playing to his abilities when healthy.


I don't doubt his ability. I doubt his body.

That's basically what I meant. That we shouldn't be relying on Calderon's current level of production to last.

[Nilanka]

Calderon starting at PG is much more "hitting the ground running" than having Bayless or some rookie running the team... Bayless would be more along the lines of "running the team INTO the ground". That's the conundrum. Without a legit PG, the team is sunk from the start.

I think we can all agree that there's no place for Bayless to be running to point....none whatsoever.

As for Colangelo hitting the ground running, I assume that's the plan without impeding the building process. I'd rather have a new PG in place sooner rather than later, because at some point in the next 1.5 seasons, Calderon will be replaced, and the offense will have to be learned by whoever the new guy is.

We can all fantasize about Calderon retiring as a Raptors. Who knows, it might actually happen, but he won't be our starter for much longer. That, I'll guarantee.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I don't understand this.

If he's doing it already, he's clearly capable of doing it. And he's been doing it ALL season.
A season which he has spent generally healthy.


And as for 'hitting the ground running', I understood this simply to mean that he'd like to be in "Time to Win" mode by next season, as opposed to "Kicking the Tires and seeing what we've got".
I'm not sure how not having Calderon is beneficial to this.

In Calderon we KNOW what we've got. And thats a Legit Starting Point Guard.
Trade him away and we're not left with much.

Or as Jimmie put it, we're left HOPING and PRAYING that someone signs with us and not the other 15 teams that will have money. Or that our Top-20 pick pans out into a Legit Starter.
Either of which is Gamble.

I love it when me and Joey are in the same corner. Tag Team!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

That's basically what I meant. That we shouldn't be relying on Calderon's current level of production to last.

Why always this way of thinking? When Bargnani started playing defense, people still say its not going to last. Now Calderon's playing good basketball people are still saying its not going to last. Whats next? Casey's system is not going to last? Demar's good play of late is not going to last?

Whats with the negativity in this world???

[Nilanka]

Why always this way of thinking? When Bargnani started playing defense, people still say its not going to last. Now Calderon's playing good basketball people are still saying its not going to last. Whats next? Casey's system is not going to last? Demar's good play of late is not going to last?

Whats with the negativity in this world???

You gotta look at overall career trends. It's not negative thinking, it's realistic thinking. Casey's always been a good defensive coach. There's no reason to think that will change.

Bargnani has always been a poor defensive player/rebounder. 13 games this season is a welcome change, but I'm not 100% sold until he keeps it up for a full season at the very least.

Calderon's old (in basketball terms), and has a history of injury problems. We can't be afraid to make tough decisions.

If we were currently a playoff team, I'd be all for sticking with Calderon for another year or two. But since we're not, one of the many items on the rebuild "to-do" list involves finding a PG. If an opportunity arises between now and March 15th, I pull the trigger without hesitation.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

You gotta look at overall career trends. It's not negative thinking, it's realistic thinking. Casey's always been a good defensive coach. There's no reason to think that will change.

Bargnani has always been a poor defensive player/rebounder. 13 games this season is a welcome change, but I'm not 100% sold until he keeps it up for a full season at the very least.

Calderon's old (in basketball terms), and has a history of injury problems. We can't be afraid to make tough decisions.

If we were currently a playoff team, I'd be all for sticking with Calderon for another year or two. But since we're not, one of the many items on the rebuild "to-do" list involves finding a PG. If an opportunity arises between now and March 15th, I pull the trigger without hesitation.

Sounds familiar, i think we've had this discussion before with Tim W, God bless his soul, wherever he may be, hehehe.

IMO, one cant keep dismantling the present in preparing for the future, specifically when what you have at the present time, works. Its not like "saving for a rainy day". Money is constant, it doesnt change. But if you keep giving away current assets that can actually help you and is not being a hindrance, for "potential" assets that you have no guarantees on, why do it? I know the history about Barganani's struggles and Calderon's injuries, that has been beaten to death in this forum, but now you have a Bargnani who plays defense and a healthy Calderon, why ruin that? Because, it "might" not last long? Well picks arent sure things either. They may or may not pan out. At least with Bargnani and Calderon, you know what you have, and you know what you will get.

With Calderon, Bargnani, a solid draft pick and FA and JV, Ed, Amir, Demar, JJ, Kleiza maybe Barbosa and Bayless, Casey's defensive system, a full training camp and full practices during a full season, wouldnt this team look like a playoff team to you? Specially on an aging East? If you let Calderon go and say draft a PG, now you have 2 rookies, one who you will rely on heavily to fit the team, run the system and get everybody to play together? You're willing to put that on rookie shoulders?

I think each one of us, when discussing the team's "future", always has OKC in the back of our heads.

[Nilanka]

A playoff appearance next season sounds good, but I'd rather aim for sustained playoff appearances. And Calderon's age prevents him from being a legitimate part of that equation.

Colangelo has mentioned on air that he's looking for an upgrade at PG, so it's not like I'm way out in left field.

We shouldn't be assuming Calderon's replacement will be a rookie. What if someone like Jennings, or Lawson becomes available?

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

A playoff appearance next season sounds good, but I'd rather aim for sustained playoff appearances. And Calderon's age prevents him from being a legitimate part of that equation.

Colangelo has mentioned on air that he's looking for an upgrade at PG, so it's not like I'm way out in left field.

We shouldn't be assuming Calderon's replacement will be a rookie. What if someone like Jennings, or Lawson becomes available?

True. But, like i said before, i dont doubt Calderon still has at least a good 5 years left in him. And in those 5 years, i dont doubt that they will make the playoffs, maybe even the Eastern finals and fingers crossed, the finals.

Even if he plays for Spain during the offseason, he wont log as much minutes as he did before, now that Rubio is on the rise and Navarro is still tearing it up in Europe.

Jennings is definitely not a pass first PG and Lawson can be argued as a PG/SG. But i do know where you're coming from. Be it an FA or rookie, i dont think there's a PG in the NBA right now, that the Raps can get, who fits the Raps system like Calderon does.

[Nilanka]

Does Calderon fit Toronto's system? Or was the system designed to fit Calderon?

(I just blew your mind, didn't I )

[Nilanka]

I guess the difference between our views stems from our beliefs in how long Calderon has left in the tank. I personally don't think he's got 5 years of high-level production left.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I would feel more comfortable if Colangelo opened the next chapter in Toronto's PG tale.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Does Calderon fit Toronto's system? Or was the system designed to fit Calderon?

(I just blew your mind, didn't I )

hahaha last time i checked his last name is still Calderon, not Wade, James, Bryant or Jordan.
Aint nobody going to devise a system to fit him.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I guess the difference between our views stems from our beliefs in how long Calderon has left in the tank. I personally don't think he's got 5 years of high-level production left.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I would feel more comfortable if Colangelo opened the next chapter in Toronto's PG tale.

I agree. i just believe that you have a PG in Calderon who already knows the games of Bargnani, Derozan, Amir, Ed, JJ, Kleiza, Barbo and Bayless, who in my strong opinion, could be a majority of their core coming into next year and most likely the years after that. You bring in a new PG who may fit Bargnani's game, or Derozan, or both, or maybe all of them, but there's no guarantee, unlike with Calderon, its already a guarantee.

[Nilanka]

According to a Brazilian report, the Boston Celtics are interested in the services of Leandro Barbosa

The Brazilian report indicates the Raptors are looking for an expiring contract and a first round pick in return for Barbosa. The Celtics can put together a package involving a first round pick, Chris Wilcox, Kenyon Dooling and Sasha Pavlovic for Barbosa. The trade works under the CBA’s trade rules

http://blogs.canada.com/2012/03/02/r...s-trade-value/

If a 3-for-1 deal goes down, we'd need to release 2 players. My guess would be Alabi and Forbes.

[Apollo]

15 men on roster which means Colangelo would have to cut two guys. My guess would be Butler and Magloire.

[Nilanka]

Here's the google translated version of the Brazilian report:

The American journalist Sam Smith said on the website of the NBA Toronto Raptors are desperate to dispatch the Brazilian Leandro Barbosa, thus leaving space for the franchise contract winger Wilson Chandler, who will return to power after the U.S. stint by China.

Leandro is the third highest salary of the Raptors ($ 7.6 million), is in his final year of contract and the Canadians are not very interested in keeping him there.

But believe me, this is not all bad, no. According to a source that deserves credibility, Toronto was contacted by the Boston Celtics to negotiate Leandro Barbosa. The Celtics have heard a single "we can negotiate," prepare a package that must contain a player and a first round choice of the Draft.

The green goal, of course, is to renew its cast (especially the wings), giving good option from the bench (the Brazilian would be great option to relax and even Ray Allen Rajon Rondo) and slightly increase the speed of a team that with three holders over age 30, has become very slow and predictable.

Let's hope the next moves of the Boston Celtics, but it would be fantastic to see Leandrinho with the green shirt.

The fact that they mention Wilson Chandler makes me think this is old news.

[Apollo]

The Celtic's pick will probably be 15-20 range unless things drastically change. That's a place where the Raptors could score a pretty good prospect in this draft.

In that range they could take a guy like Terrence Jones or Damien Lillard.

[Matt52]

http://blogs.canada.com/2012/03/02/r...s-trade-value/

If a 3-for-1 deal goes down, we'd need to release 2 players. My guess would be Alabi and Forbes.

Wilson Chandler has now become irrelevant. I would certainly trade Barbosa for the Clippers draft pick which Boston has and expiring contracts.

I don't think Forbes would be released. He is owed money for next year and it would be a waste of cap space. At the worst he is a 13th, 14th, 15th player. His contract is only $1.5M. He might also help balance a trade now or in the future. Finally, he might actually get his act together as I think he has more ability than what he has shown.

[jimmie]

If this is any indication of trade value, it certainly says a lot for what we could expect for Calderon -- eg. a helluva lot more than a late-1st and cap space.

I wouldn't have thought Barbosa would bring back that much. That's a fantastic trade for Toronto -- which makes me think it's wishful thinking on the part of some Brazilian newspaper that wants to see LB as a Celtic. I don't know who they would drop, but I'm not sure why Apollo would say Butler and Magloire. I would immediately think Butler/Alabi.

[Nilanka]

If this is any indication of trade value, it certainly says a lot for what we could expect for Calderon -- eg. a helluva lot more than a late-1st and cap space.

I wouldn't have thought Barbosa would bring back that much. That's a fantastic trade for Toronto -- which makes me think it's wishful thinking on the part of some Brazilian newspaper that wants to see LB as a Celtic. I don't know who they would drop, but I'm not sure why Apollo would say Butler and Magloire. I would immediately think Butler/Alabi.

One could argue that Wilcox makes Magloire expendable (even though he's a PF).