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Thread: Do we really need a 3?

  1. #1
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Default Do we really need a 3?

    I've been watching most of this season and I keep seeing on the boards here that our real need is a 3...our real need is a 3...we need MKG/Barnes/an enema etc...

    This is essentially James Johnson's second season. He didn't get a chance in Chicago and he played half a season here.

    He came into this season with a broken jump shot no training camp and a compressed schedule.

    He has been pretty damn impressive. He is working a ton with Tom Sterner and seems to have fixed his shot.

    This team with the following minor changes is a play off team...

    1.) Calderon gets his own shot more - pulls defenders out to him frees up lanes
    2.) DeRozan develops a steady 3 - pulls defenders out to him - blow by
    3.) Johnson takes low risk in rhythm jump shots/cleans up the glass and shuts his man down
    4.) Bargnani keeps doing what he is doing - when not injured
    5.) Valanciunas adds to the front court depth cleans the boards and erases mistakes on the defensive end allowing Johnson and DeRozan to play more aggressive D on the wings.

    Kleiza is great off the bench - Davis is great in the 3rd big man role - Gray is fine in the backup big garbage 10 minutes a game role. I really think the only decisions that need to be made are backup PG and 6th man role. I guess what I am saying is our current record is nowhere near indicative of where we are in the rebuilding process. This current core with the current coach + JV = first round play off team next season. Could we still make some changes? Absolutely, but I don't buy we are as bad off as our record says we are.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I like JJ a lot and he's obviously the best defensive wing we have but to say he shuts people down is silly

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I've been watching most of this season and I keep seeing on the boards here that our real need is a 3...our real need is a 3...we need MKG/Barnes/an enema etc...
    I agree with this premise. The three, while definitely not a strong position for us, is hardly our weakest. James Johnson has been playing well this year, improving by leaps and bounds on both ends of the floor. Kleiza is among our best benchers and is a very good piece. Could we do better? Of course but the question is, where are we worse? The two is an easy answer: with Leandro likely leaving after this year, we have no back up and there is a strong argument that Derozen is not the future at that position. Then we look at the 5. What if Val doesn't play well in his first year. Euro bigs can take a long time and expecting him to come in and be amazing may be foolish. Johnson is a little small to play the 5 as we saw this year so who starts there if Jonas doesn't work out as well as we hope? Calderon is good, but does anyone see Bayless as this teams starter?

    I'd say the three is in no worse shape than any other position. When the draft comes you take the best player available. It's just good business.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Yes we need a three.

    The problem the Raptors have, in my opinion, is guys are starting who are bench players:

    Amir - bench
    Gray - bench
    JJ - bench
    Kleiza - bench
    LotteryBall - buried

    Then you have a player like Calderon, who is very good, but would likely be a backup on half the teams in the league. DeMar while given the opportunity has yet to show he deserves the opportunity to be a full time starter - even with a 3 point shot his handle is dreadful and his defense is porous.

    The talent level on this team is not good enough to compete with the starting talent on the majority of the teams in the league (which is why they are routinely down by 15 after the first quarter).

    As for next season, JV has big expectations for me in the future but he will still be a rookie next year. He should not be counted on to be a difference maker to reach the playoffs as a rookie.



    So back to James Johnson, yes, we need a three... and possibly a 1 and 2.... and maybe a 5.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Toronto needs a starting 2, 1 and 3 in that order, in my opinion.

    Derozan has miles to go to be an effective 2, but could get there. I'm not sold, but am hoping for continued improvement for the rest of this season. And Colangelo suggesting he might be a better 3 than 2 is the definition of damning with faint praise. Sure, he might be a better 3 than 2, but that doesn't mean he'd make an effective 3. His iffy defense and rebounding rate don't support that idea. I know he can score at a starting SG level, but he needs a consistent 3-pt shot and he really needs to improve his man defense, or else he might be better served as a scorer off the bench.

    Calderon is great, for now. But he'll probably make a better backup in 3 years when it matters. Bayless is not the answer.

    James Johnson has already shown more improvement in 30+ games this year than anyone else on the team (barring Bargs' small sample). He's got 15-5-5 low-end potential, IMO, and can provide above-average defense at 3 positions. Is he a long-term starter? Maybe not, but he's certainly adequate while waiting for an elite 3 to come along. I'd be 100% comfortable starting him next year.

    5: Val, Gray, another vet
    4: Bargs, Amir (trade Ed Davis)
    3: JJ, Kleiza
    2: Derozan (let Barbosa, Bayless walk if not traded this season)
    1: Calderon (if not traded this season)

    That's not a bad start for next season. Draft pick + two players acquired in trade and free agency, bench filler. Another development season, but one where making the playoffs is not inconceivable depending on who is brought in via trade/FA. Voila.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Yeah, JJ's play is starting to make me think that rather than locking in on SF, you go BPA between SF, SG, and PG.
    You only go with PF if it's Anthony Davis, and the only way you draft a C is if it's a really strange scenario, like most of the good SFs and SGs are off the board and Drummond is still available. With no PGs currently projected to be in the top 10 (possibly not in the top 15), that means the shortlist right now is MKG/Barnes/Miller/Lamb/Beal (no particular order).

    That said, if there's an opportunity to upgrade two of these positions at the same time (trading down, trading away a player for a second pick, trading the pick away for a good package), then I think it deserves serious consideration.

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    As has been covered here on this board... JJ actually produces far better at the 4. So does Linas. So really, the Raptors don`t even have a 3. They have four back-up power forwards and one starting PF.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Toronto needs a starting 2, 1 and 3 in that order, in my opinion.

    Derozan has miles to go to be an effective 2, but could get there. I'm not sold, but am hoping for continued improvement for the rest of this season. And Colangelo suggesting he might be a better 3 than 2 is the definition of damning with faint praise. Sure, he might be a better 3 than 2, but that doesn't mean he'd make an effective 3. His iffy defense and rebounding rate don't support that idea. I know he can score at a starting SG level, but he needs a consistent 3-pt shot and he really needs to improve his man defense, or else he might be better served as a scorer off the bench.

    Calderon is great, for now. But he'll probably make a better backup in 3 years when it matters. Bayless is not the answer.

    James Johnson has already shown more improvement in 30+ games this year than anyone else on the team (barring Bargs' small sample). He's got 15-5-5 low-end potential, IMO, and can provide above-average defense at 3 positions. Is he a long-term starter? Maybe not, but he's certainly adequate while waiting for an elite 3 to come along. I'd be 100% comfortable starting him next year.

    5: Val, Gray, another vet
    4: Bargs, Amir (trade Ed Davis)
    3: JJ, Kleiza
    2: Derozan (let Barbosa, Bayless walk if not traded this season)
    1: Calderon (if not traded this season)

    That's not a bad start for next season. Draft pick + two players acquired in trade and free agency, bench filler. Another development season, but one where making the playoffs is not inconceivable depending on who is brought in via trade/FA. Voila.
    Actually, this got me thinking.

    I could go with JJ starting but only if DeRozan is not. There would have to be a SG who can do everything DeMar can do offensively and what he can't do as well. Better defensively would also go a loooooong way to helping the cause.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post

    5: Val, Gray, another vet
    4: Bargs, Amir (trade Ed Davis)
    3: JJ, Kleiza
    2: Derozan (let Barbosa, Bayless walk if not traded this season)
    1: Calderon (if not traded this season)

    That's not a bad start for next season. Draft pick + two players acquired in trade and free agency, bench filler. Another development season, but one where making the playoffs is not inconceivable depending on who is brought in via trade/FA. Voila.
    Glad I'm not the only one thinking this way. I know Ed Davis CAN provide some good stuff once in awhile. But it always seems to me like he's not really giving it his all, or not really wanting to be in TO. Even if that's not the case, I think Amir is more able to provide what we need on a nightly basis as a backup to Bargs.

    As for Barbosa, he might as well find his place on a more 'compete-now' type team and leave room for some young guys to fight it out for the 2. Bayless hasn't proven staying power on a team as a starting PG, so unless he's willing to take a small contract, ship him out...

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    From 82games.com, here's the net PER by position for the Raps:

    PG: +0.7
    SG: -4.0
    SF: -4.1
    PF: -0.5
    C: -3.4

    I'd say wings in general are the issue. I'm not suggesting PER is a perfect measure of how effective the team is by position, but this is kind of telling. Right now they're getting absolutely nothing from the 2/3 spots offensively, and that's a huge problem.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Actually, this got me thinking.

    I could go with JJ starting but only if DeRozan is not. There would have to be a SG who can do everything DeMar can do offensively and what he can't do as well. Better defensively would also go a loooooong way to helping the cause.
    That's what I'm hoping for. Either Demar gets better or moves to the bench in favour of a guy like Mayo, Rudy Fernandez, Eric Gordon (not likely) or a draft pick in Beals or Lamb (although starting a rookie over Derozan would likely mean he's out in Toronto anyway), or a trade for a guy like Monta Ellis, Anthony Morrow. Or a guy like JRich, as a temporary measure while waiting for a Beal/Lamb to develop...
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Think about it this way, who do you want starting in 2 years?

    PG: No current raptor
    SG: No current raptor
    SF: No current raptor
    PF: Andrea Bargnani (or Anthony Davis if we land him)
    C: Jonas Valanciunas

    First off the bench (if you only consider current raptors to be resigned)

    PG: Jose Calderon
    SG: Demar Derozan (I prefer to see him traded)
    SF: James Johnson or Kleiza
    PF: James Johnson or Kleiza or Amir/Ed (one of them needs to be traded, and both if we land Anthony davis)
    C: No current raptor

    Reality is, our current starting lineup is a good bench in the future. Yes we need a 3 but that's not all we need. Take the best available player in the draft and use Barbosa/Amir/Ed/Calderon/DD or combinations there of to get a second lottery pick.

    I like JJ as a bench player who can cover the 3 and 4 depending on matchups.
    I like Amir but he's at best a bench PF with good defence and hustle. I'm not attached to him.
    Ed Davis is good but he's not the answer as a starter. He's similar to Amir with more upside.
    DD's biggest liability is his FG% 3Pt% and the fact he's a poor rebounder and has zero court vision. Not the answer.
    Calderon is great as a fifth option on the team; but he can't be first or second. Awesome player. His biggest weakness is his athletic ability. He can't keep guards in front of him and he can't consistently penetrate in the paint for layups or kick-outs.
    Kleiza can get you an offensive spark off the bench at either 3 or 4. I'm not attached to him.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Wow, does nobody remember Demars is 22 years old and it's his third year. Can you name anybody other than Blake Griffin that is having a great year from the 09 draft? When he was drafted they it would take about 4 years. Well he has have one more year.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    people are gonna hate so just let them. DeMar is going to be the starter for years to come like it or not. People gotta learn to deal with it cause he sure as hell isn't going to get traded.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stretch's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Wow, does nobody remember Demars is 22 years old and it's his third year. Can you name anybody other than Blake Griffin that is having a great year from the 09 draft? When he was drafted they it would take about 4 years. Well he has have one more year.
    I guess that depends on your interpretation of "great". James Harden comes to mind. Steph Curry and Rubio are playing great imo.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Fanchie's Avatar
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    The main thing to remember is that "bench player" is not an insult. At least not if you aim at a ring. Harden is a bench player, and he's waaaay better than DD.

    JJ would be a great SF backup, and I'm not talking about 2011/12 JJ, I'm thinking of what he'll become in the next 2 years.

    He's definitely part of the contending plan, but this draft has at least 2 if not more SFs that have a higher ceiling than him. Of course, they could be busts, but what's the risk ? The other top prospects are PFs, where we already have starter/backup covered.

    That's a safe bet to take.

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    I think any wing player would be beneficial to this team.

    The way its looking is there will be 2 to 3 good SF's in the top end of the draft where we will be, and the rest are PF's. I think we should aim at taking a SF.

    If Wilson Chandler is available to us in the offseason I think we go after him. He can play both the SF and SG positions. We could start either DeMar or him at SG and the other guy can come in as a sixth man.

    For Centre, I think we are okay as long as we retain Gray. He has put in valuable minutes and will be a good back up for Jonas. Plus give him a full off-season to get in better shape and to improve his game, I think he will be a good back up in this league.

    With Barnes or MKG, J.J. and Kleiza (J.J. and Kleiza can also play some 4) we have our three spot covered for years to come.

    We are deep at the PF position. I think we should keep all 3. Bargnani starting, Ed backing up, and Amir covering both the PF and Centre positions

    As for PG, I think Calderon should be around next year, but I think we should try to add Dragic or another younger PG. If we can get another draft pick this year I think this is the way to go. Most of the PG's in this years draft will go from 15-30.


    I would like to see Bayless, Butler, Carter, Big Cat, and Barbosa (if we can get someone like Chandler)


    I think with this team we would be in the playoffs next year and then be a contender for years to come...if we stay healthy


    Jonas/Gray/Amir
    Andrea/Ed/Amir
    Barnes or MKG/Chandler/J.J./Kleiza
    DeMar/Chandler/Forbes
    Calderon/Dragic/Kabongo,Marshall,Teague or Lillard

    After next season Calderon's contract will be up, maybe we can resign him, but in a lesser role as the younger guys continue to improve.
    Last edited by saints91; Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 06:50 PM.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Im continuing to see alot of disbelief in Demar Derozan. I mean, hes in a brand new culture, a culture he's never been in, a year of large changes after being sooo successful, and we continue to have no faith in possibly one of our best chances at a big time player, I don't know if anyone saw what he did last seasons, and mind you, a couple of games this season.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    He's been inconsistent, but he's a third year player, hes feeling the "sophomore blues" most players go through in the second year.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Yeah but third year players aren't sophomore players...

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