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Thread: Marc Gasol suprised at how Raptors fans view Jose Calderon

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Kuh wrote: View Post
    For those who don't think Calderon is top 5, consider:

    1) He is tied with Steve Nash as THE BEST passer in the NBA. He is third in assists per game (8.8) behind Rajon Rondo (9.9 assists but two more turnovers per game) and Steve Nash (11.0 assists but also two more turnovers per game than Jose).

    2) And related, he has the least turnovers of any point guard in the game. Sexy? No. Does it win you games? Yes.

    3) He's believe he's fourth at 3-point shooting percentage, behind Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Kyle Lowry.

    4) His 2-point shooting percentage is top 10 as is his rebounding.

    5) Defense - hard to judge. From what I've seen he comes in as average.

    So you have the best and safest passer in the league, who is a very good shooter and rebounder for his position, and an average defender.

    Would I take a Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry over Calderon? Absolutely.
    Steve Nash? No - because Calderon has more good years left in him - though Nash is better today.
    Rajon Rondo? No. Not as good a passer (especially on our team) and disruptive.
    Derrick Rose or Stephen Curry? Better scorers, sure. Make your team better? Not so sure.

    If you look at everything? Can you place him top five on performance today? He probably comes in around four or five. Is he top 10? Absolutely.
    You don't think Rose makes his team better? I hardly think the Bulls are a championship contender without Rose.

    Rondo, not as good a passer? That's a tough argument to sell considering he put up 20 assists last night.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Kuh wrote: View Post
    For those who don't think Calderon is top 5, consider:

    1) He is tied with Steve Nash as THE BEST passer in the NBA. He is third in assists per game (8.8) behind Rajon Rondo (9.9 assists but two more turnovers per game) and Steve Nash (11.0 assists but also two more turnovers per game than Jose).

    2) And related, he has the least turnovers of any point guard in the game. Sexy? No. Does it win you games? Yes.

    3) He's believe he's fourth at 3-point shooting percentage, behind Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Kyle Lowry.

    4) His 2-point shooting percentage is top 10 as is his rebounding.

    5) Defense - hard to judge. From what I've seen he comes in as average.

    So you have the best and safest passer in the league, who is a very good shooter and rebounder for his position, and an average defender.

    Would I take a Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry over Calderon? Absolutely.
    Steve Nash? No - because Calderon has more good years left in him - though Nash is better today.
    Rajon Rondo? No. Not as good a passer (especially on our team) and disruptive.
    Derrick Rose or Stephen Curry? Better scorers, sure. Make your team better? Not so sure.

    If you look at everything? Can you place him top five on performance today? He probably comes in around four or five. Is he top 10? Absolutely.
    Well argued but you'd have a better one re Jose as a top 10 pg. You seem to have forgotten at least 2 who merit a top 5 designation....Deron Williams & Russell Westbrook. Thereafter, Rubio, Harden (who could play pg), Holliday are pretty good as well. The one stat that has always been impressive about Jose is his turnover:assist ratio.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    wait, you'd really think Calderon is better than Rose and Rondo?
    @jerboat

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Rookie your mom's Avatar
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    So glad somebody brought this up. And we wonder why no decent players want to stay in Toronto, we don't appreciate talent and consistency, all we want is a quick fix. When we get that we want a rebuild. It really bothers me since Jose has been the epitome of class this season.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    wait, you'd really think Calderon is better than Rose and Rondo?
    as a passer: yes
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote your mom wrote: View Post
    So glad somebody brought this up. And we wonder why no decent players want to stay in Toronto, we don't appreciate talent and consistency, all we want is a quick fix. When we get that we want a rebuild. It really bothers me since Jose has been the epitome of class this season.
    Why should "class" play any factor in the decision to keep/trade Calderon? If Colangelo believes he doesn't fit the rebuilding plan, Calderon's politeness, loyalty, and class make little difference.

    And how is it a "quick fix"? He's been with this team for 7 years.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #47
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    There is something that all the best players have in common. They win games. When I say they win games I mean their team wins games that they wouldn't without that elite skill set that can take over a game and put you in the win column. Jose, has his positives but being that kind of player he isn't. In his NBA career never has he demonstrated the ability to score on a consistent basis or defend a top PG. Yes the A/T record is wonderful and I loved the year he couldn't miss a free throw but IMHO this team needs more from the PG than what he has. When it comes to wins this year with Bayless or Jose it probably won't make much of a difference but I prefer to see this team go in a new direction.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    as a passer: yes
    i don't know rose is pretty all world. he could get more assists easily if he needed to i think.

    but the argument isn't is jose top 5/10 (maybe 10, 5 no way) or even if he is a good player. it is about the best for the team going forward and if the opportunity comes to make a somewhat lateral move at the point and get a prospect or pick for jose you need to take it.

    this is basketball. they pretend the motto is "where amazing happens" but it is "this is a business" and all decisions must be made with businessmen like uncaring.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Rookie Ion66's Avatar
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    I thought we were supposed to trade all current players for "a prospect" and some magic beans? I figure it's like horse doctoring. Playing poorly? Trade. Playing hard but not top talent? Trade while the effort is there. Talented and playing hard. Trade while the trade value is maxed and theres no injuries. Outstanding player having a career year? Trade for prospects and cap space. Whatever Jose's rank is in terms of point guards, I dont see any players of his quality currently available, draft or free agents. If there was "a lateral move" to be had, plus a bonus, I could see it. It's when you try and figure who is a lateral move for Jose that you start to appreciate how good he is and what his ranking could/should be. He certainly is top 5 to 10 in some catagories. In others, not so much. I'll still take him as our PG over someone who is middle of the road in all catagories, or even a bit better in ones that arent as important. Ideally, I'd love for him to not risk injury playing for the Spanish team as much as he does. I hope that as he gets a bit older, that he might favour the Raptors needs over his national team. I understand it certainly, but in many ways, thats my biggest complaint when it comes to Jose. Keep him for next year. See then what the chemistry is with the new faces and what other quality PG's are to be had at that point, then see what kind of $$$ he is going to need to stay.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    as a passer: yes
    Rose and rondo are most definitely as good at passing, for D-rose and rondo, maybe even better court vision. Jose always looks players off, and tries make the perfect pass, which sometimes isn't good, because you may have made the good wide open pass to continue the play, but Rondo and Derrick Rose know when there are better oppurtunities, and thats what makes them successful, especially for D-Rose because he isn't a pass-first point guard.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    There is something that all the best players have in common. They win games. ...
    This is the sort of throwaway statement that has always bothered me. I don't even know what it means. TEAMS win games, not players. Unless you are scoring 80 points a night, or getting 35 assists, you aren't winning games. Don't even make me start going down the list of great players who left bad teams because the TEAM couldn't win games and the players were hungry for better results.

  12. #52
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    There isn't a list of great players who left bad teams because their team couldn't win games. Maybe they left because they wanted a better shot at a championship but if they are or were a great player they won games that the team wouldn't have won without them doing what great players do. LeBron is one example. The team fell apart without him. Even Bosh put the team on his back occasionally. That is what i'm referring to and I think most of us know what it means. Jose hasn't shown the ability to take it upon himself to do what a great PG can do.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    There isn't a list of great players who left bad teams because their team couldn't win games. Maybe they left because they wanted a better shot at a championship but if they are or were a great player they won games that the team wouldn't have won without them doing what great players do. LeBron is one example. The team fell apart without him. Even Bosh put the team on his back occasionally. That is what i'm referring to and I think most of us know what it means. Jose hasn't shown the ability to take it upon himself to do what a great PG can do.
    It's basically a trait that separates good players from great ones. Unfortunately, there isn't a clear, statistical measure available to define this separation.

    Calderon is no doubt a solid player. But I personally don't see him as a difference maker in the sense that j bean is referring to. If Calderon sat out a few games, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same "compete level" with Bayless running the point (and I personally think Bayless is a terrible PG).

    Edit: And by "compete level", I'm referring to hard fought close losses.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Mar 6th, 2012 at 01:06 PM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #54
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    Top 5? Where would you put Calderon in this list?

    Rose
    CP3
    D Will
    Westbrook
    Rondo
    Nash
    Parker
    Lowry
    Jennings
    John Wall
    Kyrie Irving
    Teague
    Ty Lawson
    Ricky Rubio
    Stephen Curry
    Dru Holiday
    Mike Conley
    Tyreke Evans
    Devin Harris
    You forgot about Jack. We tried to trade Calderon so we could keep Jack but found no takers. Calderon has just developed the ability to shoot almost contested jump shots and now everybody wants to keep him???? You are not playing 5 on 4 any more but he doesn't demand tight coverage. I would not keep him at 10 mil.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    It's basically a trait that separates good players from great ones. Unfortunately, there isn't a clear, statistical measure available to define this separation.
    If there isn't a clear statistical measure available, there is a high likelihood it's a BS judgement.


    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If Calderon sat out a few games, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same "compete level" with Bayless running the point (and I personally think Bayless is a terrible PG).
    I think we have seen what happens when Bayless gets on the floor quite enough, thank you. We watched the last year and the first half of this year. Having said that, the last couple of games he has been not bad.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I think we have seen what happens when Bayless gets on the floor quite enough, thank you. We watched the last year and the first half of this year. Having said that, the last couple of games he has been not bad.
    Bayless tries too hard when he comes off the bench, now he's found his rhythm. We saw last season when he got playing time when Jose was out, he ran this team very well. Not with the same efficiency as Jose, but he ran the team, and didn't do one hell of a bad job WHEN he got good playing time. He's getting it back after basically missing almost as much time as Bargnani, I hope he continues it.

  17. #57
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    I... I can't help it. When someone actually post in all seriousness that the reigning MVP doesn't make their team better and isn't as good as Calderon, I have to post something.

    I think this team has made us get a bit of Stockholm Syndrome, where we've fallen for our captors and just start overrating everyone. This team is bad. Very bad. Having Calderon leave won't change that because they will still be bad. If you handed the reigns to Bayless, I'm sure he can do just as good of a job running a pick and roll and going at a .250 winning clip as Jose can do. In fact, if they lose more, then GOOD, cause they will get a better chance at a higher draft pick. At some point in time, the Raps have to figure out if they have something with Bayless. Guys like Barbosa, Calderon, Carter, Maglore, Klieza... they don't matter. On this current roster, really, only Bargnani matters (to a lesser extent, DeRozan, although he's looking more and more like Jeff Malone). Trading Calderon and getting a possible late round draft pick or even cap relief will not only open up more time to Bayless, but you also reward a good soldier in Calderon by trading him to a team where he can actually play for something instead of toiling away on a lottery team. Let him go to a team where he can use his skills (decent spot up shooter, runs a team well, low turnovers) and where he doesn't have to be the 1st, 2nd or 3rd option.

    Calderon really is a victim of bad timing. 5 or 6 yrs ago, he'd be going up against the likes of Eric Snow and Kirk Hinrick. Since then, you've had a PG boom in the league and now, he's just another guy. He's no better or worse than the likes of Mike Conley, Jeff Teague or Jrue Holliday (depending on what you want). It's time to cut the cord. I'm sure the Raptors will be fine without him.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
    I... I can't help it. When someone actually post in all seriousness that the reigning MVP doesn't make their team better and isn't as good as Calderon, I have to post something.

    I think this team has made us get a bit of Stockholm Syndrome, where we've fallen for our captors and just start overrating everyone.
    This team is bad. Very bad. Having Calderon leave won't change that because they will still be bad. If you handed the reigns to Bayless, I'm sure he can do just as good of a job running a pick and roll and going at a .250 winning clip as Jose can do. In fact, if they lose more, then GOOD, cause they will get a better chance at a higher draft pick. At some point in time, the Raps have to figure out if they have something with Bayless. Guys like Barbosa, Calderon, Carter, Maglore, Klieza... they don't matter. On this current roster, really, only Bargnani matters (to a lesser extent, DeRozan, although he's looking more and more like Jeff Malone). Trading Calderon and getting a possible late round draft pick or even cap relief will not only open up more time to Bayless, but you also reward a good soldier in Calderon by trading him to a team where he can actually play for something instead of toiling away on a lottery team. Let him go to a team where he can use his skills (decent spot up shooter, runs a team well, low turnovers) and where he doesn't have to be the 1st, 2nd or 3rd option.

    Calderon really is a victim of bad timing. 5 or 6 yrs ago, he'd be going up against the likes of Eric Snow and Kirk Hinrick. Since then, you've had a PG boom in the league and now, he's just another guy. He's no better or worse than the likes of Mike Conley, Jeff Teague or Jrue Holliday (depending on what you want). It's time to cut the cord. I'm sure the Raptors will be fine without him.
    PLUS MOTHER FREAKIN' ONE!

    Damn, about time. Jose vs. Derrick Rose. Just stop.

    I would like to see Jose retire a Raptor though, but not as our starting point guard. I've continuously said our real gaping hole is the point guard.

    PG - Jose? Bayless?
    SG - Demar
    SF - James Johnson
    PF - Andrea Bargnani
    C - Jonas Valanciunas

    We have good prospects and very good potential talent at every position EXCEPT the point guard. Bayless is a combo guard, sixth man, spark plus type player. If he were to start, he would be a point guard with a play-making shooting guard like D-Wade, Joe Johnson. Or a shooting guard.
    We know what we get from Jose every night. Good assist/turnover ratio. Very good shooter, gets the ball to the right guys. Can create better looks for people. But he just doesn't have that second gear that he can turn on like Rondo, Rose, D-Will, Westbrook, CP3, where they can just decide to take over the game in ALL aspects, whether it be scoring, finding players, rebounding, defense, push, push, and push.

    I think this year's draft is where we can grab a good young prospect to transition as our point guard for the future, or score for a contributing point guard prospect like DJ Augustine in the FA, or maybe trade to get a good point guard.

    In conclusion, real problem is the point guard, unfortunately with this year's draft being so point guard weak, and how many available point guards in the FA are down, we never know what happens there.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Starter japetas's Avatar
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    What do you think about this one http://www.blazersedge.com/2012/3/2/...s-for-calderon ?
    (Sorry for poor English )

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote japetas wrote: View Post
    I don't like it personally.

    How much more is a 30 year old Gerald Wallace going to give you next year at $11.4M than JJ would give you at $2.8M?

    Now if Wallace opted out, that would certainly make things interesting as the Raptors would have cleared $16M off the books. But I very much like Kleiza off the bench.


    Maybe Wallace for Calderon on draft night?

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