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Thread: Marc Gasol suprised at how Raptors fans view Jose Calderon

  1. #21
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    Trading Jose will turn this team to mediocre. You can never ever find easy PG who runs a team.. Jose is the one, out of three.. Do you really think Lawson is better than Jose ?

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    RECAP: Jose is not "untouchable" but should only be traded if the deal values Jose properly.
    Completely agree

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I am one who thinks up many trade scenarios for Jose, but it is born out of the rumours and looking for value (a pick or such to get us a replacement). My absolute preference is to trade Barbosa and other assets to net such a replacement while keeping Jose.
    i so want barbosa gone. years ago i thought he was great playing for brazil in the olympics. now that he is a raptor and i see him all the time he is a horrible chucker. i feel that someone who averages 10-15 points off the bench is more valuable if you can write them down for 12 a night instead of 20 one day and 6 the next. get a pick or a player for him and i am happy.
    Last edited by Miekenstien; Sun Mar 4th, 2012 at 09:33 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote irgigi wrote: View Post
    Trading Jose will turn this team to mediocre. You can never ever find easy PG who runs a team.. Jose is the one, out of three.. Do you really think Lawson is better than Jose ?
    this team is and has been mediocre with jose for years.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Rookie WestsideRidah's Avatar
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    Something that gets missed a lot in the trade Jose camp is who's going to replace him? Nobody on the current roster is capable of running this team, the draft has no PG that can come in and make an impact as a rookie ( at least that's how it looks, you never know with rookies) and their aren't many great options available in free agency (Nash and Williams aren't coming) that leaves the likes of Felton, Hinrich, Kidd, Miller, Billups, Nelson, Augustin none of whom I think are all that much of an upgrade if at all. Any trade will not bring back a great option because why would they trade for a PG if they already have a good one there? I think Jose being a Raptor next season is something that is just going to happen and I think it will be the best non move B.C could make. We have a young C coming over who excels in a pick and roll offense, Jose's forte. He is averaging 9+ assists a game with mediocre talent, imagine if he had better players to work with? Yes he has been injured in the past, but nobody can predict injuries so that argument seems silly to me, unless you own a crystal ball. I think the only realistic conclusion is that we better get ready for more Jose.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote WestsideRidah wrote: View Post
    Something that gets missed a lot in the trade Jose camp is who's going to replace him? Nobody on the current roster is capable of running this team, the draft has no PG that can come in and make an impact as a rookie ( at least that's how it looks, you never know with rookies) and their aren't many great options available in free agency (Nash and Williams aren't coming) that leaves the likes of Felton, Hinrich, Kidd, Miller, Billups, Nelson, Augustin none of whom I think are all that much of an upgrade if at all. Any trade will not bring back a great option because why would they trade for a PG if they already have a good one there? I think Jose being a Raptor next season is something that is just going to happen and I think it will be the best non move B.C could make. We have a young C coming over who excels in a pick and roll offense, Jose's forte. He is averaging 9+ assists a game with mediocre talent, imagine if he had better players to work with? Yes he has been injured in the past, but nobody can predict injuries so that argument seems silly to me, unless you own a crystal ball. I think the only realistic conclusion is that we better get ready for more Jose.

    Do you own a crystal ball that tells you Nash isn't or wouldn't come to Toronto? Money and legacy (in that order) combined with familiar people and arguably the best trainer in the world are pretty good arguments.


    As for the silly argument of injury history after nearly 4 months of rest following this past summer, here is his injury history so far this year in the most gruelling schedule possible:

    Nothing.

    After 2010 World Championships, sore foot and ankle issues started early in the year and persisted throughout 2010-11:

    2011/04/13 Missed the last 4 games of the regular season (strained left hamstring).
    2011/04/08 Strained left hamstring, day-to-day.
    2011/04/06 Missed 3 games (strained left hamstring).
    2011/04/02 Strained left hamstring, day-to-day.
    2011/01/26 Missed 1 game (ankle injury).
    2011/01/24 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
    2011/01/05 Missed 1 game (sprained right ankle).
    2011/01/04 Sprained right ankle, day-to-day.
    2010/12/31 Missed 1 game (ankle injury).
    2010/12/28 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
    2010/12/17 Missed 4 games (sore left foot).
    2010/12/10 Sore left foot, day-to-day.
    2009 European Championships, hamstring and hip issues that never went away in 2009-2010 and TJ Ford was long gone:

    2010/03/05 Missed 1 game (lacerated elbow).
    2010/03/01 Lacerated elbow, day-to-day.
    2010/02/07 Missed 1 game (sprained right ankle).
    2010/02/03 Sprained right ankle, day-to-day.
    2010/01/06 Missed 10 games (hip injury).
    2009/12/13 Hip injury, sidelined indefinitely.
    2009/12/11 Missed 2 games (hip injury).
    2009/12/08 Hip injury, day-to-day.
    2008 Olypmics, hamstring early and often in the 2008-2009 which happened to be the first year without TJ:

    2009/02/18 Missed 1 game (hamstring).
    2009/02/11 Hamstring, day-to-day.
    2009/02/06 Missed 1 game (hamstring).
    2009/02/04 Hamstring, day-to-day.
    2009/01/23 Missed 6 games (hamstring).
    2009/01/12 Hamstring, day-to-day.
    2009/01/11 Missed 4 games (hamstring).
    2009/01/04 Hamstring, day-to-day.2008/11/19 Missed 2 games (hamstring).
    2008/11/16 Hamstring, day-to-day.
    Source

    2007-2008 no injuries after Eurobasket at 26 years of age, in a contract year, with TJ Ford playing significant minutes until he was Horford-ed.




    So Jose has a history of overuse injuries. We're not talking freak accidents, we're talking pulled muscles in feet, hamstring, groin, and hip areas - all classic examples of overuse, lack of rest. Also, notice the dates on many of these injuries - November, December, January. This season after resting following international competition for 4 months, he is healthy.

    This summer will be the 2012 Olympics and he is playing after a gruelling 66 games in around 130 days. I wonder what will happen come November and December of 2012 - my money is on hamstring.


    I believe a wise man once said, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." Yeah, what he said.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:09 AM.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Rookie WestsideRidah's Avatar
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    Doesn't having " the best trainer in the world" in the organization, as well as having zero injuries "In the most grueling schedule possible" run extremely counter to your argument? While your list of injuries is impressive and well researched, it doesn't change the fact that unless you can tell the future you cannot say when and where injuries will occur. It's sports things happen it's not like we are talking about Greg Oden here.

  8. #28
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    Giving big $$$ to a 38 year old free agent would be absurd. Draft Kabongo, I say!

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Giving big $$$ to a 38 year old free agent would be absurd. Draft Kabongo, I say!
    +1

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote WestsideRidah wrote: View Post
    Doesn't having " the best trainer in the world" in the organization, as well as having zero injuries "In the most grueling schedule possible" run extremely counter to your argument? While your list of injuries is impressive and well researched, it doesn't change the fact that unless you can tell the future you cannot say when and where injuries will occur. It's sports things happen it's not like we are talking about Greg Oden here.
    Absolutely not. The point of the argument is he had 4 months off prior to this gruelling schedule. He'll be lucky to have 6 weeks off after the Olympics and the start of training camp for the 2012-13 season. Lack of rest and lack of off season strength and flexibility training is not going to help a 30+ year old train for the rigours of an 82-game NBA season - plus hopefully playoffs soon.

    The list of injuries is certainly impressive and definitely worth strong consideration to trading him at the first good deal possible. For future reference for you or anyone else, if you go to player profile on TSN.ca you get all the injury history for every player.

    This topic has been discussed in many places throughout these forums. I have said elsewhere that if Jose was healthy, I would absolutely be thrilled to keep him. The problem is history doesn't support this. No, I don't have a crystal ball but if going with probabilities, I would say it is a high probability he is injured throughout next season with an overuse injury(ies) as it has happened 3 of 4 years when the NBA season has started on time and he had played international competition the prior off season. Combine those odds with his increasing age, then I think there is very just cause for my concerns.

    You are correct on Greg Oden. Jose does not have one leg shorter than the other or missing cartilage in his knees. However, Jose does have a history of injuries at the start of an NBA season when he played international competition the prior off season. Two different players with two different injury histories.

    But this is all my opinion, if you disagree, so be it. I certainly disagree the odds of injury are the same with Jose as any other NBA player based on his history, age, and continuation of international competition in to his 30's.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Giving big $$$ to a 38 year old free agent would be absurd. Draft Kabongo, I say!
    Giving big money to a 38 year old free agent who has been in decline for years from a physical and basketball perspective would be absurd. Actually the Raptors did that once with a certain C who turned out not to be more of a nightmare than a dream.

    However, giving big money to a 38 year old free agent who is still performing at an all-star level, is a fitness and health fanatic, has not played less than 74 games in the last 10 seasons, is the best pick and roll player in the league (on a roster with 2 great pick and roll finishers in AB and JV) is far from absurd.

    I do like the idea of drafting Kabongo to serve as backup for a couple of seasons before taking over. He is still raw but he is playing on a team lacking a lot of talent in Texas. He was one of the most highly touted prospects before this season started and he is #5 on the 2013 mock draft at DraftExpress.com.

  12. #32
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    Texas had Espn's number 4 draft class from last season with four top 100 freshman plus they have junior J'Covan Brown who has played great this season (33 points on 18 shots vs. no. 5 Kansas last night). Butler, NCAA finalist last two years, has only had one top 100 recruit ever (Kyle Marshall). Number 8 Missouri has only one top 100 recruit.
    Last edited by stretch; Sun Mar 4th, 2012 at 03:54 PM.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Texas had Espn's number 4 draft class from last season with four top 100 freshman plus they have junior J'Covan Brown who has played great this season (33 points on 18 shots vs. no. 5 Kansas last night). Butler, NCAA finalist last two years, has only had one top 100 recruit ever (Kyle Marshall). Number 8 Missouri has only one top 100 recruit.
    What have those freshman done? Brown is an undersized SG who would give Barbosa a run for Black Hole of the Year. Their starting C who is a senior did not play last year and prior to that never played more than 8 mpg in a season prior to this year.

    What Butler did or Missouri did has no relevance. The combination of team talent, personalities, and coaching has put those teams where they are - not rankings by ESPN that hardly translate to NCAA success. I've watched enough of Texas this year to realize Kabongo is not perfect nor a complete product but he has a lot of really great attributes and skills. It would be amazing to see what he could do in UNC or Kentucky with that type of talent around him.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I don't understand it either.

    To be honest, I'd be happy if he never left.

    Calderon:
    unselfish
    great passer
    great team mate
    coachable
    wonderful interview great guy

    would be good on veteran team playing behind a front line PG. Raps dont need to spen 1/5 of their salary cap on a guy who is in the wrong place at the wrong time... and does not fit in to the defensive philosophy.

    People are not RUNNING HIM OUT OF TOWN like HEDO... they just don't think he is a good fit in Toronto right now.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  15. #35
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    J'Covan's play has been quite stellar of late when the amount of attention he gets is considered. Ask anyone in Austin.

    It's moot, but Kabongo would have been buried on the bench at UNC and UK. Myck has 30 minutes per game on a winning team in a tough conference. Tough schedule too, but the Longhorns have no victories against top 25 teams which means they have to run the table in the conference tournament or no dance.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    J'Covan's play has been quite stellar of late when the amount of attention he gets is considered. Ask anyone in Austin.

    It's moot, but Kabongo would have been buried on the bench at UNC and UK. Myck has 30 minutes per game on a winning team in a tough conference. Tough schedule too, but the Longhorns have no victories against top 25 teams which means they have to run the table in the conference tournament or no dance.
    Kabongo might have been back up at UNC but I have no doubt he'd start versus Teague. Teague is a SG asked to play point.

    I don't know where the disagreement is coming in on Kabongo. You said draft Kabongo and I agreed. I think Kabongo is much better than many give him credit for.

  17. #37
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't know where the disagreement is coming in on Kabongo. You said draft Kabongo and I agreed. I think Kabongo is much better than many give him credit for.
    Sorry, to be misleading. I was being facetious. The best I can say for MK is that he is a work in progress.

    Another totally irrelevant point I would like to make is that on the day where Kabongo failed to score in his big game at Kansas, Pangos had 30 points against a tournament bubble team, BYU, in the WCC tournament. I don't know if I agree with this but the ESPN announcer called Pangos "the best freshman point guard in the country."
    Last edited by stretch; Sun Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:59 PM. Reason: spelling

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    this team is and has been mediocre with jose for years.
    Look whats been around him for years....

  19. #39
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    Default Another Calderon fan

    For those who don't think Calderon is top 5, consider:

    1) He is tied with Steve Nash as THE BEST passer in the NBA. He is third in assists per game (8.8) behind Rajon Rondo (9.9 assists but two more turnovers per game) and Steve Nash (11.0 assists but also two more turnovers per game than Jose).

    2) And related, he has the least turnovers of any point guard in the game. Sexy? No. Does it win you games? Yes.

    3) He's believe he's fourth at 3-point shooting percentage, behind Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Kyle Lowry.

    4) His 2-point shooting percentage is top 10 as is his rebounding.

    5) Defense - hard to judge. From what I've seen he comes in as average.

    So you have the best and safest passer in the league, who is a very good shooter and rebounder for his position, and an average defender.

    Would I take a Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry over Calderon? Absolutely.
    Steve Nash? No - because Calderon has more good years left in him - though Nash is better today.
    Rajon Rondo? No. Not as good a passer (especially on our team) and disruptive.
    Derrick Rose or Stephen Curry? Better scorers, sure. Make your team better? Not so sure.

    If you look at everything? Can you place him top five on performance today? He probably comes in around four or five. Is he top 10? Absolutely.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Kuh wrote: View Post
    For those who don't think Calderon is top 5, consider:

    1) He is tied with Steve Nash as THE BEST passer in the NBA. He is third in assists per game (8.8) behind Rajon Rondo (9.9 assists but two more turnovers per game) and Steve Nash (11.0 assists but also two more turnovers per game than Jose).

    2) And related, he has the least turnovers of any point guard in the game. Sexy? No. Does it win you games? Yes.

    3) He's believe he's fourth at 3-point shooting percentage, behind Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Kyle Lowry.

    4) His 2-point shooting percentage is top 10 as is his rebounding.

    5) Defense - hard to judge. From what I've seen he comes in as average.

    So you have the best and safest passer in the league, who is a very good shooter and rebounder for his position, and an average defender.

    Would I take a Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry over Calderon? Absolutely.
    Steve Nash? No - because Calderon has more good years left in him - though Nash is better today.
    Rajon Rondo? No. Not as good a passer (especially on our team) and disruptive.
    Derrick Rose or Stephen Curry? Better scorers, sure. Make your team better? Not so sure.

    If you look at everything? Can you place him top five on performance today? He probably comes in around four or five. Is he top 10? Absolutely.

    had it all sounding nice until you gave rose the shaft. between rose and paul is a tough decision. i think rose is the best player who plays the point in the league and paul is the best point guard

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