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Thread: Who do you realistically see as the Point Guard of the future?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    First off, I see Jose being the starter for another 3-4 years (brought back on a cheaper deal). Moving on ...

    From the draft: Tomas Satoransky could be a strong talent to groom in a backup role. Yes another Euro, but he is big, athletic, great court vision, and would have another young Euro in Jonas to help get him acclimated to the NBA game. Not to mention Jose, a star euro to show him the ropes. He could be had with a late first round pick or even early 2nd - allowing us to use our higher pick on another area (SF, SG, trade).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2fIX...eature=related

    Also from the draft, I really like the potential of Kabongo. Selfless, lightening quick, great vision - just needs to slow it down sometimes.

    Free agency only shows an unattainable star (Deron), aging PGs (Nash, Kidd) who aren't in the long term plans, and mediocre talent that won't be in our long term plans for a starting PG.

    The trade market could be very interesting if we move our 2nd rounder, Amir, or Bayless (pre-deadline). Players like Bledsoe, Dragic, and Flynn maybe ... low risk.

    Sessions would be a great backup, but not a starter for the future.

    Stuckey has some potential as well.

    I was really high on Avery Bradley the year we went with Ed. He was injured in his rookie year, and has yet to get major minutes. If Rondo is staying in Boston, there isn't much future for another young PG to ever get an expanded role.
    Last edited by Papa Burgundy; Fri Mar 9th, 2012 at 09:43 AM.
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  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You are right, things do change. But if they become available, it means their level of play has changed. If they all continue on the path they are on, the very reasons you or the Raptors would want them is the very reason they would not be available.
    No, it could also mean the level of OUR players has changed. Or that the strategy of other franchises (in terms of who they want to keep, whether they are rebuilding/contending, etc.) has changed.

    This is not a zero-sum game, and Toronto's current roster doesn't exist in a vaccuum.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  3. #43
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The fact is Bryan Colangelo has said on numerous occasions this year that a focus of his is, one way or another, acquiring a point guard of the future.
    This sounds like one of my ex-employers from the 80's; he kept promising great things would happen to us in the future. The fact the future time frame was never defined made it impossible to hold him to any promises.

    My point is I have no clue what seasons Colangelo or Matt define as "the future".

    Matt, what seasons do you define as "the future" for the sake of this discussion?

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    This sounds like one of my ex-employers from the 80's; he kept promising great things would happen to us in the future. The fact the future time frame was never defined made it impossible to hold him to any promises.

    My point is I have no clue what seasons Colangelo or Matt define as "the future".

    Matt, what seasons do you define as "the future" for the sake of this discussion?
    Any point in time beyond now would be or could be considered the future.

    I have no idea what Colangelo has in mind. It was a discussion idea started based on public comments Colangelo has made.

    Interpret it any way you want however please refrain from making this a "Should we keep Calderon?" or "Should we trade Calderon?" thread - there are enough of those out there.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    No, it could also mean the level of OUR players has changed. Or that the strategy of other franchises (in terms of who they want to keep, whether they are rebuilding/contending, etc.) has changed.

    This is not a zero-sum game, and Toronto's current roster doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

    OK.

    So your suggestion is to go after a young point guard who has firmly cemented themselves as an up and coming PG in the league and a starter on their respective team (Wall, Curry, Irving, Holiday, Lawson, Jennings, Rubio, Lowry).

    They are to be obtained by restricted free agency where the only way to secure their services is to overpay - and it also assumes they will not be extended by their team prior to the end of their rookie contract.

    The other method is to trade for them. Considering all are on rookie contracts and provide great value relative to their contract it is pretty tough to get a PG like the ones you are suggesting.

    For the record, anyone of those PG's would be awesome. However, I don't see it realistic given they will be restricted free agents or their current contract is not up for 2-plus seasons - but that is just my opinion. If you see it as being realistic, then that is your opinion.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I can see the small-market Bucks being unwilling to pony up for Jennings, especially if they maintain their mediocrity status.
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  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Matt. I don't any of those players will be moving anytime soon. I could see Curry being moved if he continues to have injury problems, but it will still be a high price. Based on how hard it is to get a quality PG I don't think any of these guys will become available anytime soon. Still on their rookie contracts, which usually get extended. Most good players test the market as unrestricted FA's after their 7 or 8th years in the league (Bosh, LeBron, Williams, Howard, Wade, Nash, Amare). I would expect the same from the players listed.

    I think our best chances are through the draft or getting lucky with a free agent that was playing a back up role and just needs a change of scenery.
    Last edited by saints91; Fri Mar 9th, 2012 at 12:23 PM.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I can see the small-market Bucks being unwilling to pony up for Jennings, especially if they maintain their mediocrity status.
    I agree. Of all those PGs Jennings is the one most likely to be had - but not cheap.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Here is a thought I had today: Nick Calathes. I read his name in a chat on HoopsWorld.com and I realized I had totally forgot about him (by the way, Dallas owns his draft rights).

    For those of you who don't know who he is, he played for the Florida Gators his freshman and sophomore years in '07/08 and '08/09. He used his Greece family background and, with his Greek passport, gave up his junior and senior years at Florida to go professional in Greece. More background here.

    DraftExpress.com profile

    All stats (NCAA, Europe) via Draft Express.com

    He is just turned 23 in February. He is 6'6". DraftExpress lists his best case as Jose Calderon and his worst case as Sarunas Jasikevicius - not bad company. For those Euro-phobes around here, he put up stellar stats at Florida - equal to or better than Deron Williams in my opinion (Williams had a clear advantage in assist to turnover but that is it). He has played the last 3 years at the highest level of competition outside of the NBA - and arguably the most intense basketball in the world. His stats aren't that eye catching from the last few years in Europe but, as Ricky Rubio showed, stats in Europe can be misleading - especially for a PG - due to the style of and approach to the game.

    From DraftExpress.com:





    If Deron Williams ends up in Dallas, I'd be making the call to Donnie Nelson. Actually, I'd be making the call anyways.

    Added: EuroBasket 2011 profile:
    I have seen enough of Calathes this year to know he's far from being an NBA PG. To put in perspective, he's light years from being as good as Jose or Sarunas, and he plays on the same team as the latter so it's easy to compare them...This is an interesting thread though at it is maybe the most important question about the Raptors going forward. If this team is going to move forward with JV, Bargs, maybe Derozan, JJ and/or Kleiza, we'll clearly need a new PG.
    Everyone thinks if we keep our pick it's going to be used on a wing as right now no PGs are projected high in the draft. The fact that Marshall is such a great passer and can't seem to move up is a bit strange and concerning to me. Kabongo seems a bit less developed than I hoped, maybe because of strength and needing a better shot? Haven't seen enough of either, but in this age of loving PGs, the fact that none seem to be raising their stock is weird. Lots of talk Kabongo will stay another year (not a bad idea if getting stronger and more experience launches him into the top 10 next year). So all this to say is that maybe we pick one of these guys and they end up great, but right now there seems to be enough questions about both that it seems unlikely to happen this summer....Maybe we get to pick Kabongo next year?? who knows?

    Trade options are tricky. I am intrigued by Bledsoe, and if the Clips make him available, I'd jump all over that. I don't understand why they're hanging onto him so hard.
    I don't like Jennings attitude. I think he's just a dumb kid or something, he just doesn't "get it" as they say. I do think he seems to have an ok attitude in terms of positivity and such, but yeah, seems immature and maybe should stay away from him unless he shows otherwise instead of trading for him and hoping he matures for us.

    In free agency, I just don't see any upgrades really. Maybe players with different strengths than Calderon, but no one I'd say is better, especially for leadership on a young team. Honestly the only upgrade on Calderon is to get a top flight PG. Jose has taken too much crap from Toronto fans, as he's not that far from an all-star level PG. Unless we're sure to acquire one or draft a future all-star, we should hang onto Jose.

    Basically I see that at this point, there is no PG of the future. Unless BC thinks he can make a play for an established all-star, there aren't many available prospects in trades or the draft to say we can find our successor to Calderon. Realistically I just don't want to have a mediocre PG replace Calderon. If we get Bledsoe or someone like Augustin, we should still keep Calderon, as he could mentor/push both, and if neither is truly elite, we know Jose makes part of a great PG tandem. Same goes for if we get a PG in the draft this year or next. Unless someone jumps in the draft to be a can't miss pick, it's likely we'll need Jose around as a teacher and insurance. I just hope Jose wants to stay.

  10. #50
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Just posted this in the Draft Thread, but suppose its relevant in this thread as well:

    Kendall Marshall just broke the All-Time Assist record for a single season, in the ACC.
    Very big Deal.

    Kendall Marshall now stands alone.


    The 6-foot-4 sophomore point guard set the Atlantic Coast Conference’s the single-season assist record with his pass to forward Harrison Barnes with 15:31 remaining in the first half. Marshall passes former Georgia Tech guard Craig Neal, who had held the record since the 1987-88 season.


    Marshall has compiled 534 assists in less than two seasons as the starter for North Carolina and is certainly in range of the national career record set by former Duke guard Bobby Hurley. Hurley dished out 1,076 assists in four seasons with the Blue Devils.


    If Marshall decides to stay all four years, that record could be in danger as well.

    Source

    Here's hoping he doesn't stay all 4 years at UNC!
    Let's get him and move on from this whole "PG of the Future talk." Haha
    In Masai we Trust.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I have seen enough of Calathes this year to know he's far from being an NBA PG. To put in perspective, he's light years from being as good as Jose or Sarunas, and he plays on the same team as the latter so it's easy to compare them...This is an interesting thread though at it is maybe the most important question about the Raptors going forward. If this team is going to move forward with JV, Bargs, maybe Derozan, JJ and/or Kleiza, we'll clearly need a new PG.
    Everyone thinks if we keep our pick it's going to be used on a wing as right now no PGs are projected high in the draft. The fact that Marshall is such a great passer and can't seem to move up is a bit strange and concerning to me. Kabongo seems a bit less developed than I hoped, maybe because of strength and needing a better shot? Haven't seen enough of either, but in this age of loving PGs, the fact that none seem to be raising their stock is weird. Lots of talk Kabongo will stay another year (not a bad idea if getting stronger and more experience launches him into the top 10 next year). So all this to say is that maybe we pick one of these guys and they end up great, but right now there seems to be enough questions about both that it seems unlikely to happen this summer....Maybe we get to pick Kabongo next year?? who knows?

    Trade options are tricky. I am intrigued by Bledsoe, and if the Clips make him available, I'd jump all over that. I don't understand why they're hanging onto him so hard.
    I don't like Jennings attitude. I think he's just a dumb kid or something, he just doesn't "get it" as they say. I do think he seems to have an ok attitude in terms of positivity and such, but yeah, seems immature and maybe should stay away from him unless he shows otherwise instead of trading for him and hoping he matures for us.

    In free agency, I just don't see any upgrades really. Maybe players with different strengths than Calderon, but no one I'd say is better, especially for leadership on a young team. Honestly the only upgrade on Calderon is to get a top flight PG. Jose has taken too much crap from Toronto fans, as he's not that far from an all-star level PG. Unless we're sure to acquire one or draft a future all-star, we should hang onto Jose.

    Basically I see that at this point, there is no PG of the future. Unless BC thinks he can make a play for an established all-star, there aren't many available prospects in trades or the draft to say we can find our successor to Calderon. Realistically I just don't want to have a mediocre PG replace Calderon. If we get Bledsoe or someone like Augustin, we should still keep Calderon, as he could mentor/push both, and if neither is truly elite, we know Jose makes part of a great PG tandem. Same goes for if we get a PG in the draft this year or next. Unless someone jumps in the draft to be a can't miss pick, it's likely we'll need Jose around as a teacher and insurance. I just hope Jose wants to stay.
    Are you in Europe?

    If not, where do you watch the games?


    Looking at Jasikevicius' and Calathes' statistics (which is hardly giving a full and accurate description) I would question Nick being light years from Sarunas.

    With regards to Calderon, I could see that. But given the fact Nick is just turned 23 with 2 years of NCAA experience and 3 solid years in the Euroleague, one would have to think his ceiling is still not within reach.

    Jasikevicius' Euroleague profile

    Calathes Euroleague profile

    Also looking back at Jose's Euroleague stats when he was in his early-mid 20's doesn't really make Calderon look light years ahead of Calathes at the same stage in their developments.


    I really don't know much about Calathes at this time but I do know he had 16 points, 11 assists, and 5 rebounds last year in the championship game of the Greek A1 League after also logging 22.6 minutes per game to help the team win the EuroLeague title as well.

    As for this year:

    Meanwhile in Greece, Panathinaikos Athens' point guard Nick Calathes (6-6", 195, '89) has been going to work. Panathinaikos is second in Greek A1 Ethniki League right after Olympiakos Piraeus. Calathes has been averaging 21,3 minutes a game in a stacked Panathinaikos team to go with 7,7 points, 2,8 assists, 2,5 rebounds and 1,5 steals.

    In Euroleague competition, Panathinaikos has steamrolled their way into Top 16 and are splitting the top position of Group G with Russian team Unics Kazan. Calathes has been a key factor in Euroleague as well, averaging 8,4 points, 2,9 assists, 2,2 rebounds and 1,4 steals in 22,6 minutes a game.
    The numbers he is putting up this year are very comparable with those of Ricky Rubio last year in EuroLeague competition. His assist numbers are a little lower but his %'s and turnovers are better. Perimeter play in the EuroLeague and the NBA are night and day with Euro being much more physical.

    Anyways - if you can provide a link to EuroLeague games, I'd really appreciate it.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Mar 9th, 2012 at 03:37 PM.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    when are you ever convinced that someone whos never played a game in the nba is going to be a future all star?
    As much as i hate the guy, only Lebron James was the clear cut all star whos been ever been drafted, IMO.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    As much as i hate the guy, only Lebron James was the clear cut all star whos been ever been drafted, IMO.
    I don't recall Shaq or Duncan really "surprising" anyone during their rookie years either. They were pretty much penciled in as all-stars from the start.
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  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't recall Shaq or Duncan really "surprising" anyone during their rookie years either. They were pretty much penciled in as all-stars from the start.
    Oh thats right.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Mar 9th, 2012 at 04:41 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    As much as i hate the guy, only Lebron James was the clear cut all star whos been ever been drafted, IMO.
    I'm obviously older than you so I'll help you add to that list Bird, Magic, Kareem, Oscar, Wilt, and Bill Russell.
    Last edited by stretch; Fri Mar 9th, 2012 at 05:45 PM.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Chris Webber was also a sure thing.

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Are you in Europe?

    If not, where do you watch the games?


    Looking at Jasikevicius' and Calathes' statistics (which is hardly giving a full and accurate description) I would question Nick being light years from Sarunas.

    With regards to Calderon, I could see that. But given the fact Nick is just turned 23 with 2 years of NCAA experience and 3 solid years in the Euroleague, one would have to think his ceiling is still not within reach.

    Jasikevicius' Euroleague profile

    Calathes Euroleague profile

    Also looking back at Jose's Euroleague stats when he was in his early-mid 20's doesn't really make Calderon look light years ahead of Calathes at the same stage in their developments.


    I really don't know much about Calathes at this time but I do know he had 16 points, 11 assists, and 5 rebounds last year in the championship game of the Greek A1 League after also logging 22.6 minutes per game to help the team win the EuroLeague title as well.

    As for this year:



    The numbers he is putting up this year are very comparable with those of Ricky Rubio last year in EuroLeague competition. His assist numbers are a little lower but his %'s and turnovers are better. Perimeter play in the EuroLeague and the NBA are night and day with Euro being much more physical.

    Anyways - if you can provide a link to EuroLeague games, I'd really appreciate it.
    I am in Europe, but I don't know the site I watch games on. I watch them with my friend(I've seen 6 or 7 games, all Euroleague except one Greek league) who's a diehard Panathinaikos fan. Calathes has been good for them, but hardly a crucial piece. He's more like a good glue guy who could maybe be a good bench PG in the NBA. He doesn't have the kind of burst you need, and his shot is good but hardly that of a sniper. Diamantidis tends to do most of the major ball handling and playmaking in clutch situations, and they have plenty of other guys who are better weapons, counting the fact that they also have some inside weapons. Calathes, like I said, just does his job as a glue guy, trying to make smart plays out there, knock down open shots and play good D. Even if he one day turns into a solid starter, it's a bit too far off I think to consider for us. His absolute best case may be Calderon with worse passing instincts, and that might be 3 or 4 years from now at the earliest. And really don't get too excited about Calathes' D, as the team is a great defensive team and I've seen him get pulled a few times this year for mistakes (though he's not making bad mistakes, just a fact of life being on a good team). Bottom line, he has nothing about his game that stands out so I can't picture him being a solution and have a hard time seeing him as more than a good NBA backup in the best case. To put it in perspective, Jasikevicius has a swagger and big shot ability that is hard to find, even if he lacks astonishing skills in other areas. Calderon has always been a great passer and good decision-maker. Rubio has obvious flair and talent for playmaking. Calathes has none of those. He has good size, but not great speed. He shoots well, but hasn't shown enough consistency to call it a true threat, especially from deep. I wish I could think of an NBA comparison, but one escapes me right now. He could 'learn' the game as well as Jose or Sarunas, and he is a smart player, but I'm not sure he is talented enough or cocky enough (like Sarunas) to be a big impact player.

    Anyway, I'll see if I can remember about that link. Maybe send me a message so I don't forget. I'll ask my buddy next time I see him, in fact I'm catching tomorrow's Panathinaikos - Olympiacos game with him, so I'll see if I remember.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I am in Europe, but I don't know the site I watch games on. I watch them with my friend(I've seen 6 or 7 games, all Euroleague except one Greek league) who's a diehard Panathinaikos fan. Calathes has been good for them, but hardly a crucial piece. He's more like a good glue guy who could maybe be a good bench PG in the NBA. He doesn't have the kind of burst you need, and his shot is good but hardly that of a sniper. Diamantidis tends to do most of the major ball handling and playmaking in clutch situations, and they have plenty of other guys who are better weapons, counting the fact that they also have some inside weapons. Calathes, like I said, just does his job as a glue guy, trying to make smart plays out there, knock down open shots and play good D. Even if he one day turns into a solid starter, it's a bit too far off I think to consider for us. His absolute best case may be Calderon with worse passing instincts, and that might be 3 or 4 years from now at the earliest. And really don't get too excited about Calathes' D, as the team is a great defensive team and I've seen him get pulled a few times this year for mistakes (though he's not making bad mistakes, just a fact of life being on a good team). Bottom line, he has nothing about his game that stands out so I can't picture him being a solution and have a hard time seeing him as more than a good NBA backup in the best case. To put it in perspective, Jasikevicius has a swagger and big shot ability that is hard to find, even if he lacks astonishing skills in other areas. Calderon has always been a great passer and good decision-maker. Rubio has obvious flair and talent for playmaking. Calathes has none of those. He has good size, but not great speed. He shoots well, but hasn't shown enough consistency to call it a true threat, especially from deep. I wish I could think of an NBA comparison, but one escapes me right now. He could 'learn' the game as well as Jose or Sarunas, and he is a smart player, but I'm not sure he is talented enough or cocky enough (like Sarunas) to be a big impact player.

    Anyway, I'll see if I can remember about that link. Maybe send me a message so I don't forget. I'll ask my buddy next time I see him, in fact I'm catching tomorrow's Panathinaikos - Olympiacos game with him, so I'll see if I remember.
    Thanks for the insights.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I'd also like to add that stats can be even more deceptive in European leagues. Games are shorter, coaches might screw around with rotations a lot depending on the game and which league it's in. There is less opportunity for one guy to score 30 points a night but many teams have lots of guys who might be threats in different ways. I'm not saying they don't tell you anything, but as an NBA fan who's been watching more European ball this year (also caught a couple of Jonas' games), I find the stats are even less helpful than in the NBA in trying to determine a player's impact.

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    I joined this forum last night to lobby for Kendall Marshall, and wow i've found the place to do it. I know there are questions about his foot speed and shooting but you just don't get floor generals like him everyday. The man gets the ball in the perfect spot for his shooters everytime and has a sky high B-Ball IQ. I don't know but when I watch him play I just feel his game, and you can't argue his Tar-Heel pedigree. He is projected mid first round i believe..get utah on da phone lol!! My dream would be JV,Barnes and Kendall for the next 15 years. people are sleeping on this guy!

    any thoughts on Kendall? On another note after reading Raptors Rebublic everyday I'm so happy I manned up and joined this awesome community. from Newfoundland..GO RAPS!!!

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