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Thread: Everything Jerryd Bayless

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This might be a little naive on my part but one could also watch the game. Stats are a wonderful and helpful thing but there is still a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.
    I think his point was that teams do have ways to measure this, and the fact is, as I stated in my post, Bayless has started 33 games out of 223 for a reason.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    In your opinion, does Bayless' evaluation period last beyond this season?

    The reason I ask is because it's likely that by April 26th (i.e. the final game of the season), we won't have any more intuition about Bayless' future than we do now.
    IMO, yes. Like i said, i would like to see him go through a full training camp and a full season of practices. So i reserve my judgement till the end of next season, that is, if he is still here.

    Why is that likely? What would highly influence his game by April 26th?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    IMO, yes. Like i said, i would like to see him go through a full training camp and a full season of practices. So i reserve my judgement till the end of next season, that is, if he is still here.

    Why is that likely? What would highly influence his game by April 26th?
    What I meant is that Bayless hasn't shown us much in the past 12 months. He's still the same player he was when we acquired him. So what can we realistically expect him to transform into over the final month of the season that would warrant re-signing him? I personally don't think he's worth the $4 million qualifying offer, to one day, answer the question of whether he's an NBA player or not.

    If we give every single player the benefit of the doubt, and only part ways once we were 100% sure they can't help the team, we'd get nowhere fast.

    We don't have a lot invested into Bayless (financially, or emotionally) that I don't see any reason not to look for his replacement this offseason. If he goes on to be a starting PG one day, so be it. It's not something we should to be afraid of happening, whether it's likely or not.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think his point was that teams do have ways to measure this, and the fact is, as I stated in my post, Bayless has started 33 games out of 223 for a reason.
    Im not sure what you are trying to say with these numbers. I dont think Bayless will ever get a chance to establish himself as a starter unless Calderon gets injured for lots of games or gets traded.

    The Calderon-Ford fiasco was purely a coaching issue. Mitchell wanted to split the minutes between Ford and Calderon. It wasnt like Ford sucked after he came back from injury, and it wasnt like Calderon was spectacular either. Mitchell just split the minutes, period. And Ford didnt like it so he got shipped out. Bayless played good basketball when Calderon went down last season, but Triano still went back to Calderon when he got better. And this season, Jose is the starter, even if Bayless played good in the final few games last season.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    What I meant is that Bayless hasn't shown us much in the past 12 months. He's still the same player he was when we acquired him. So what can we realistically expect him to transform into over the final month of the season that would warrant re-signing him? I personally don't think he's worth the $4 million qualifying offer, to one day, answer the question of whether he's an NBA player or not.

    If we give every single player the benefit of the doubt, and only part ways once we were 100% sure they can't help the team, we'd get nowhere fast.

    We don't have a lot invested into Bayless (financially, or emotionally) that I don't see any reason not to look for his replacement this offseason. If he goes on to be a starting PG one day, so be it. It's not something we should to be afraid of happening, whether it's likely or not.
    Hasnt shown much? Did you see his numbers when Calderon went down last season?

    Like i said, the guy got traded to the Raptors mid-season last year (NO CAMP, LIMITED PRACTICES), and with this season (NO CAMP, NO PRACTICES) plus missed 17 games due to injury.

    Youre not giving him the benefit of the doubt, youre judging a player who hasnt even had the chance to run full sets with his teammates. And, given a new system i might add.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Mar 14th, 2012 at 03:23 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think his point was that teams do have ways to measure this, and the fact is, as I stated in my post, Bayless has started 33 games out of 223 for a reason.
    I think I got the point. All I was saying is that sometimes stats (like in the Milwaukee game) don't tell the full story. If anyone thought Bayless had a good game versus Milwaukee, in my opinion, they didn't watch it.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I didnt see the game so im basing it on stats, 54%FG, 6asts and 1 TO, in 28mins for a poor game, i think thats a bit harsh. Considering your 2 best scorers, who play on the ball most of the time were a mere ~40%FG that night and your big, who usually gets the pass from the PG, got 12pts on 6of7FG. Im not saying that Amir got all the good passes from Bayless, but he probably did.

    And like i said, this is why training camp and practices in between games are very important. its on Bayless dont get me wrong, but what im saying is you cant totally write him off without the proper procedure put in place first. And im not saying he IS the future PG of this team, im saying he CAN be, once we see what he can do given the right procedure.
    So if you didn't see the game you wouldn't get the point. Stats don't tell the full story. If it was all about stats, Al Jefferson wouldn't be part of so many losing teams.

    He continually looked off teammates, got the ball to people at wrong time or in poor position.

    He did a great job as a shooting guard.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post

    how do you determine that he doesnt have court vision and basketball iq? because of turnovers?
    He misses wide open players, whether it's cutting, back-doors, mismatches, the hot hand, he just can't see these things. His court awareness is not very good, he can't see where defenders are coming from when he's pressured fully, and he can't control the other four players in creating an offence. He's too unpredictable, and if you saw the Cleveland game, he ran one play, which was the shooting guard come off double screens in the low post to free open. He got picked off quite a bit off of those plays, and they changed their game-plan defensively, because they knew Bayless was only going to run that one play. He got his playing time, and had nice stats. But a couple assists came off 'pass at the last second', and he threw up so many prayers, luckily he made them. I remember when he tried putting a move on Irving, and held the ball for 3 seconds, than threw it up like it was a bomb, and drained it. Sure, confident shot, but not a good one.

    Basketball IQ for a point guard, is know all plays defensively/offensively, know your check, find mismatches, see your teammates, run the team smoothly, control shot selection whether it's your shot or your teammates', make the right play/decisions, know who has the hot-hand, and it's your job to lead the team into the game-plan. He did a fair job of running the team vs. Cleveland, but he had as many bad decisions as good ones. And, I'm not talking about turnovers. Jump-shots, tunnel vision, telegraphing etc. etc.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So if you didn't see the game you wouldn't get the point. Stats don't tell the full story. If it was all about stats, Al Jefferson wouldn't be part of so many losing teams.

    He continually looked off teammates, got the ball to people at wrong time or in poor position.

    He did a great job as a shooting guard.
    +1

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    he had no defensive pressure on him at all last night & his ball distribution was still very mediocre..he looks very uncomfortable leading an offence..J.Johnson is a better passer..... he still has major issues converting and 1's...he cant finish at the rim in traffic.. he tends to get too carried away with 1on1 battles.. hes not starter quality & i doubt he ever will be..
    +1

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think I got the point. All I was saying is that sometimes stats (like in the Milwaukee game) don't tell the full story. If anyone thought Bayless had a good game versus Milwaukee, in my opinion, they didn't watch it.
    I didnt see it, so i can only go by stats. Im not saying he had a good game, but im saying labelling it "poor" might be a bit too much as well.

    Like what Tim W. used to always tell me, its all "semantics".

  12. #92
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    The Calderon-Ford fiasco was purely a coaching issue. Mitchell wanted to split the minutes between Ford and Calderon. It wasnt like Ford sucked after he came back from injury, and it wasnt like Calderon was spectacular either. Mitchell just split the minutes, period. And Ford didnt like it so he got shipped out. Bayless played good basketball when Calderon went down last season, but Triano still went back to Calderon when he got better. And this season, Jose is the starter, even if Bayless played good in the final few games last season.
    Put 2 and 2 together man. Why did Triano still go back to Calderon? Why does Casey?

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Put 2 and 2 together man. Why did Triano still go back to Calderon? Why does Casey?
    +100000000000000

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I didnt see it, so i can only go by stats. Im not saying he had a good game, but im saying labelling it "poor" might be a bit too much as well.

    Like what Tim W. used to always tell me, its all "semantics".
    I think it would be worth your time to find the game and watch it.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I didnt see it, so i can only go by stats. Im not saying he had a good game, but im saying labelling it "poor" might be a bit too much as well.

    Like what Tim W. used to always tell me, its all "semantics".
    Btw, what happened to that guy Tim W.?

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This might be a little naive on my part but one could also watch the game. Stats are a wonderful and helpful thing but there is still a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.
    Yes, there is a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.

    Metrics should be used to determine if your observations are consistent with facts and to pinpoint areas to investigate further if they do not. There is a point though at which you must choose between your research and your observations.

    Keep in mind this is the viewpoint of someone who first got involved in sabermetrics more than 30 years ago to disprove ludicrous statements from sport journalists who were saying things like "the cost of playing Greg Luzinski in left field is 100 runs per year" as facts.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Yes, there is a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.

    Metrics should be used to determine if your observations are consistent with facts and to pinpoint areas to investigate further if they do not. There is a point though at which you must choose between your research and your observations.

    Keep in mind this is the viewpoint of someone who first got involved in sabermetrics more than 30 years ago to disprove ludicrous statements from sport journalists who were saying things like "the cost of playing Greg Luzinski in left field is 100 runs per year" as facts.
    Unless you are lucky enough to have the stats back up your opinion

  18. #98
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I just find it baffling that there's this much debate over a player like Bayless. To me, it's very clear he's not capable of running an offense, and I don't wish to waste the team's valuable resources (i.e. salary, time, coaches) hoping he "gets it" at an unknown time in the future.

    If Bayless magically grew 4 inches, a strong case could be made that Bayless deserves the starting SG spot over DeRozan. But he's definitely no PG.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    For me, the truest (is that even a word?), most accurate evaluation of Bayless is... my wife. Before we got married, she had never watched a game, but now she even "likes" the Raptors on Facebook. Throughout Bayless' time on the Raptors, my wife has been constantly baffled by Bayless' play, often asking me questions like: "why is he playing 1 on 5?" or "why doesn't he use his teammates the way Caldy does?" or "why doesn't he pass the ball more?" or "why does he stand there and dribble for so long and then just take a long shot that isn't even close?". Even as a recent basketball fan, my wife is able to observe the fact that the offense just seems to stall when Bayless subs in for Calderon and that they have to work twice as hard to get a basket. I just laugh when she gets into a game and gets so frustrated when Bayless jacks up a forced shot early in the shot clock to kill the team's momentum, exclaiming "Bayless is useless" at the TV... makes me proud! lol

  20. #100
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Hasnt shown much? Did you see his numbers when Calderon went down last season?

    Like i said, the guy got traded to the Raptors mid-season last year (NO CAMP, LIMITED PRACTICES), and with this season (NO CAMP, NO PRACTICES) plus missed 17 games due to injury.

    Youre not giving him the benefit of the doubt, youre judging a player who hasnt even had the chance to run full sets with his teammates. And, given a new system i might add.
    Yes, I saw his numbers last year. They're the same as this year. They look good on paper, but he still can't run an offense.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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