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  • #76
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He had 6 assists against Milwaukee and I thought he played a poor game.

    He can't be a ball stopper which is what he has been at times when he looks for himself. If he consistently played within the concept of 'team' I don't think there would be many Jerryd "Haters".
    I didnt see the game so im basing it on stats, 54%FG, 6asts and 1 TO, in 28mins for a poor game, i think thats a bit harsh. Considering your 2 best scorers, who play on the ball most of the time were a mere ~40%FG that night and your big, who usually gets the pass from the PG, got 12pts on 6of7FG. Im not saying that Amir got all the good passes from Bayless, but he probably did.

    And like i said, this is why training camp and practices in between games are very important. its on Bayless dont get me wrong, but what im saying is you cant totally write him off without the proper procedure put in place first. And im not saying he IS the future PG of this team, im saying he CAN be, once we see what he can do given the right procedure.

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    • #77
      Hugmenot wrote: View Post
      A player who has yet to demonstrate he is good enough to be a starter on any team would likely alienate all General Managers if he were to demand a trade claiming he deserves more playing time.

      Bayless is already on his 3rd team and frankly, publicly asking to be traded would likely label him as a "problem" and shorten his career. Better to put up a good face and get millions of reasons to smile after his next contract.


      I believe there are a few measure to help quantity these attributes.

      A basic metric is to chart what is the proportion of passes which leads to open looks, and where. For example, a pass to a wide open wing for a corner three attempt is worth more than a pass to tightly guarded player 12 feet away from the basket.

      A complex metrics which is more difficult to measure is to analyze each play and determine if the player made the right decision by estimating his teammates (including those who were not the recipient of the pass) likelihood to score when he passed the ball. That would tell you whether he passed to the best option when he made the pass.

      Another complex metric is to determine when teammates where in a good scoring position and how often does he recognize those situations and pass them the ball. That would tell you something about his court vision.

      In my opinion, the technology already exists to measure these things and teams have the resources to hire the manpower to chart plays should they ever believe the information gathered would give them a significant competitive advantage.

      I am not convinced it would.
      Thats actually a good point. A trade demand wouldve ended his career.

      Would you happen to know where we can see Bayless' metrics?

      Comment


      • #78
        tbihis wrote: View Post
        I didnt see the game so im basing it on stats, 54%FG, 6asts and 1 TO, in 28mins for a poor game, i think thats a bit harsh. Considering your 2 best scorers, who play on the ball most of the time were a mere ~40%FG that night and your big, who usually gets the pass from the PG, got 12pts on 6of7FG. Im not saying that Amir got all the good passes from Bayless, but he probably did.

        And like i said, this is why training camp and practices in between games are very important. its on Bayless dont get me wrong, but what im saying is you cant totally write him off without the proper procedure put in place first. And im not saying he IS the future PG of this team, im saying he CAN be, once we see what he can do given the right procedure.
        In your opinion, does Bayless' evaluation period last beyond this season?

        The reason I ask is because it's likely that by April 26th (i.e. the final game of the season), we won't have any more intuition about Bayless' future than we do now.

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        • #79
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          This might be a little naive on my part but one could also watch the game. Stats are a wonderful and helpful thing but there is still a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.
          I agree. But watching games can also be subjective as well.

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          • #80
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            Amen, brother!

            The fact that two other teams passed on him should also give you an idea of their overall impression of him as a pg-of-the-future. Portland was looking for a legit starting PG before, during and after Bayless was on their roster. The best they've done is Andre Miller, Steve Blake and Ray Felton... they didn't view Bayless as being any better (or seemingly with even the potential to become better) than those players. That should also tell you something.

            I hope Bayless' recent good play (ie: scoring, not running the team) has some playoff teams looking for a short term rental for a younger, cheaper version of Barbosa (I could see the Lakers, Clippers, Celtics among others, being interested at the right price).
            Actually, Portland already had a legit starting PG in Blake, and he was perfect since they didnt need a scoring PG because Roy had the ball most of the time anyways. Pretty much like Kobe and the Lakers. Doesnt matter what PG you put beside Kobe or Roy, those PGs are not going to make them any better. And on his 2nd year with POR, they acquire Miller. Would you pass up on the savvy veteran for a sophomore?

            You cant write him off just because he wasnt given the opportunity off the bat. If the Raptors disregarded Amir coz he never played more than 10mins in Detroit, would we see how he is now?

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            • #81
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              This might be a little naive on my part but one could also watch the game. Stats are a wonderful and helpful thing but there is still a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.
              I think his point was that teams do have ways to measure this, and the fact is, as I stated in my post, Bayless has started 33 games out of 223 for a reason.
              your pal,
              ebrian

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              • #82
                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                In your opinion, does Bayless' evaluation period last beyond this season?

                The reason I ask is because it's likely that by April 26th (i.e. the final game of the season), we won't have any more intuition about Bayless' future than we do now.
                IMO, yes. Like i said, i would like to see him go through a full training camp and a full season of practices. So i reserve my judgement till the end of next season, that is, if he is still here.

                Why is that likely? What would highly influence his game by April 26th?

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                • #83
                  tbihis wrote: View Post
                  IMO, yes. Like i said, i would like to see him go through a full training camp and a full season of practices. So i reserve my judgement till the end of next season, that is, if he is still here.

                  Why is that likely? What would highly influence his game by April 26th?
                  What I meant is that Bayless hasn't shown us much in the past 12 months. He's still the same player he was when we acquired him. So what can we realistically expect him to transform into over the final month of the season that would warrant re-signing him? I personally don't think he's worth the $4 million qualifying offer, to one day, answer the question of whether he's an NBA player or not.

                  If we give every single player the benefit of the doubt, and only part ways once we were 100% sure they can't help the team, we'd get nowhere fast.

                  We don't have a lot invested into Bayless (financially, or emotionally) that I don't see any reason not to look for his replacement this offseason. If he goes on to be a starting PG one day, so be it. It's not something we should to be afraid of happening, whether it's likely or not.

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                  • #84
                    ebrian wrote: View Post
                    I think his point was that teams do have ways to measure this, and the fact is, as I stated in my post, Bayless has started 33 games out of 223 for a reason.
                    Im not sure what you are trying to say with these numbers. I dont think Bayless will ever get a chance to establish himself as a starter unless Calderon gets injured for lots of games or gets traded.

                    The Calderon-Ford fiasco was purely a coaching issue. Mitchell wanted to split the minutes between Ford and Calderon. It wasnt like Ford sucked after he came back from injury, and it wasnt like Calderon was spectacular either. Mitchell just split the minutes, period. And Ford didnt like it so he got shipped out. Bayless played good basketball when Calderon went down last season, but Triano still went back to Calderon when he got better. And this season, Jose is the starter, even if Bayless played good in the final few games last season.

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                    • #85
                      Nilanka wrote: View Post
                      What I meant is that Bayless hasn't shown us much in the past 12 months. He's still the same player he was when we acquired him. So what can we realistically expect him to transform into over the final month of the season that would warrant re-signing him? I personally don't think he's worth the $4 million qualifying offer, to one day, answer the question of whether he's an NBA player or not.

                      If we give every single player the benefit of the doubt, and only part ways once we were 100% sure they can't help the team, we'd get nowhere fast.

                      We don't have a lot invested into Bayless (financially, or emotionally) that I don't see any reason not to look for his replacement this offseason. If he goes on to be a starting PG one day, so be it. It's not something we should to be afraid of happening, whether it's likely or not.
                      Hasnt shown much? Did you see his numbers when Calderon went down last season?

                      Like i said, the guy got traded to the Raptors mid-season last year (NO CAMP, LIMITED PRACTICES), and with this season (NO CAMP, NO PRACTICES) plus missed 17 games due to injury.

                      Youre not giving him the benefit of the doubt, youre judging a player who hasnt even had the chance to run full sets with his teammates. And, given a new system i might add.
                      Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Mar 14, 2012, 03:23 PM.

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                      • #86
                        ebrian wrote: View Post
                        I think his point was that teams do have ways to measure this, and the fact is, as I stated in my post, Bayless has started 33 games out of 223 for a reason.
                        I think I got the point. All I was saying is that sometimes stats (like in the Milwaukee game) don't tell the full story. If anyone thought Bayless had a good game versus Milwaukee, in my opinion, they didn't watch it.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          tbihis wrote: View Post
                          I didnt see the game so im basing it on stats, 54%FG, 6asts and 1 TO, in 28mins for a poor game, i think thats a bit harsh. Considering your 2 best scorers, who play on the ball most of the time were a mere ~40%FG that night and your big, who usually gets the pass from the PG, got 12pts on 6of7FG. Im not saying that Amir got all the good passes from Bayless, but he probably did.

                          And like i said, this is why training camp and practices in between games are very important. its on Bayless dont get me wrong, but what im saying is you cant totally write him off without the proper procedure put in place first. And im not saying he IS the future PG of this team, im saying he CAN be, once we see what he can do given the right procedure.
                          So if you didn't see the game you wouldn't get the point. Stats don't tell the full story. If it was all about stats, Al Jefferson wouldn't be part of so many losing teams.

                          He continually looked off teammates, got the ball to people at wrong time or in poor position.

                          He did a great job as a shooting guard.

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                          • #88
                            tbihis wrote: View Post

                            how do you determine that he doesnt have court vision and basketball iq? because of turnovers?
                            He misses wide open players, whether it's cutting, back-doors, mismatches, the hot hand, he just can't see these things. His court awareness is not very good, he can't see where defenders are coming from when he's pressured fully, and he can't control the other four players in creating an offence. He's too unpredictable, and if you saw the Cleveland game, he ran one play, which was the shooting guard come off double screens in the low post to free open. He got picked off quite a bit off of those plays, and they changed their game-plan defensively, because they knew Bayless was only going to run that one play. He got his playing time, and had nice stats. But a couple assists came off 'pass at the last second', and he threw up so many prayers, luckily he made them. I remember when he tried putting a move on Irving, and held the ball for 3 seconds, than threw it up like it was a bomb, and drained it. Sure, confident shot, but not a good one.

                            Basketball IQ for a point guard, is know all plays defensively/offensively, know your check, find mismatches, see your teammates, run the team smoothly, control shot selection whether it's your shot or your teammates', make the right play/decisions, know who has the hot-hand, and it's your job to lead the team into the game-plan. He did a fair job of running the team vs. Cleveland, but he had as many bad decisions as good ones. And, I'm not talking about turnovers. Jump-shots, tunnel vision, telegraphing etc. etc.
                            Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                            • #89
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              So if you didn't see the game you wouldn't get the point. Stats don't tell the full story. If it was all about stats, Al Jefferson wouldn't be part of so many losing teams.

                              He continually looked off teammates, got the ball to people at wrong time or in poor position.

                              He did a great job as a shooting guard.
                              +1
                              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
                                he had no defensive pressure on him at all last night & his ball distribution was still very mediocre..he looks very uncomfortable leading an offence..J.Johnson is a better passer..... he still has major issues converting and 1's...he cant finish at the rim in traffic.. he tends to get too carried away with 1on1 battles.. hes not starter quality & i doubt he ever will be..
                                +1
                                Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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