Everything Jerryd Bayless

[ceez]

I'd like to see Forbesy get Bayless minutes for a couple games (i know its not going to happen) and see what kind of stats he produces. From the last few games i've watched Forbes actually runs the offense better.

This isn't a "Bayless sucks!" civil war post, im just genuinely wondering.

A lot of Bargs troubles since he's been back are from his injury and his own confidence but a lot has to be blamed on Bayless. I can think of a few times in both the memphis and charlotte games when he was screaming at him to pass him the ball because he was wide open but Jerryd was doing his hero thing. Granted, the ball has been falling for him pretty well the past couple games but he's got i repeat GOT to get the other players more involved. You can throw "but hes averaging 8 assists over the last few games!" at me but there's some things the box score doesn't really tell.

I was thinking the other day it'd be interesting if you paired him with a guy like Beal or a point forward type player, but the reality is he needs to dominate the ball to be effective, and that's the big red flag right there.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Here is my feeling on it. I don't think he has great court vision, and he is not a great distributer. He tends to take the team on his back and look for his shot first. I'm cool with this style as a back up. When you have a less talented line-up on the floor it would be nice to have that extra punch of offence. We have talented guys in our starting line up and Bayless doesn't seem to be able to set them up as well as Calderon can. To maximize abilities you start the distributer and get the energy and scoring off the bench. I would like to see DeMar and Bargs with the ball in their hands more.

I totally agree, but i would add "At the moment" to this comment.

First of all, i dont want him to start over Calderon. Calderon is the starting PG of this team, period. But down the road, if the Raps decide they no longer want Calderon to be their starting PG, i wouldnt mind giving Bayless a shot.

2nd, with a coach like Casey who preaches unselfish basketball and Calderon who is a very unselfish player, i cant see any reason why Bayless cant learn from these two when it comes to ball distribution, court vision, etc. IMO, its easier to teach or tell Bayless to pass or not to take long twos early in the shotclock, than telling Calderon to take over the game in crunch time.

[Matt52]

I'd like to see Forbesy get Bayless minutes for a couple games (i know its not going to happen) and see what kind of stats he produces. From the last few games i've watched Forbes actually runs the offense better.

This isn't a "Bayless sucks!" civil war post, im just genuinely wondering.

A lot of Bargs troubles since he's been back are from his injury and his own confidence but a lot has to be blamed on Bayless. I can think of a few times in both the memphis and charlotte games when he was screaming at him to pass him the ball because he was wide open but Jerryd was doing his hero thing. Granted, the ball has been falling for him pretty well the past couple games but he's got i repeat GOT to get the other players more involved. You can throw "but hes averaging 8 assists over the last few games!" at me but there's some things the box score doesn't really tell.

I was thinking the other day it'd be interesting if you paired him with a guy like Beal or a point forward type player, but the reality is he needs to dominate the ball to be effective, and that's the big red flag right there.

I noticed that as well.

Going to commercial breaks when time outs were called or end of quarter, numerous times Bargnani was talking Primo with him.

[DoNDaDDa]

I dont mind Bayless but he is NOT a starter on this team or in this league for that matter.

[joey_hesketh]

From NBA.coms Power Rankings:

Starting the last five games, Jerryd Bayless has averaged 21.8 points and 7.6 assists, shooting 54 percent from the field. The Raptors have been more efficient offensively with Bayless on the floor and will have a decision to make this summer, when the 23 year old is a restricted free agent.
Source

I dont mind Bayless but he is NOT a starter on this team or in this league for that matter.

I don't really understand this statement.
He's shown to be an effective starter, according to his play, last year and this year.
So how can you now come out and make a statement like this.

If he were putting up Steve Blake numbers as a Starter, then fine, I'd get it.
But he's not.

[Matt52]

From NBA.coms Power Rankings:







I don't really understand this statement.
He's shown to be an effective starter, according to his play, last year and this year.
So how can you now come out and make a statement like this.

If he were putting up Steve Blake numbers as a Starter, then fine, I'd get it.
But he's not.

I don't mean to keep repeating myself - maybe this is the last time I'll offer my two cents - but it is so much more than numbers. If it was just numbers, a guy like Al Jefferson would be a perennial all-star.

Personally, I would like my point guard to make others around him. I don't see that in Bayless' game at this time. It might be something he can develop but I am not confident. I would really like to be wrong though. If the future PG is right here, why keep looking?

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I don't mean to keep repeating myself - maybe this is the last time I'll offer my two cents - but it is so much more than numbers. If it was just numbers, a guy like Al Jefferson would be a perennial all-star.

Personally, I would like my point guard to make others around him. I don't see that in Bayless' game at this time. It might be something he can develop but I am not confident. I would really like to be wrong though. If the future PG is right here, why keep looking?

Finally! hahaha

Is Bayless still on his rookie contract?

[Hugmenot]

One ring ... er.. thread, to rule them all.

All joking aside, why the hell should I bother discussing a topic with someone who is not astute or interested enough to notice there are already two active threads discussing the same basic topic on the first page?

(not directed at you Joey)

[Chr1s1anL]

See I'm fine with that. I just get when ppl are ready to take a flyer on random player when we haven't figured out are own current prospect.

[Chr1s1anL]

Finally! hahaha

Is Bayless still on his rookie contract?

Yes he is.

[joey_hesketh]

I don't mean to keep repeating myself - maybe this is the last time I'll offer my two cents - but it is so much more than numbers. If it was just numbers, a guy like Al Jefferson would be a perennial all-star.

Personally, I would like my point guard to make others around him. I don't see that in Bayless' game at this time. It might be something he can develop but I am not confident. I would really like to be wrong though. If the future PG is right here, why keep looking?

We know what your personal opinion is on the matter, Matt. Haha
You made it very clear with that Article you wrote.

And I understand it is more than just numbers. I've never once made it about just his numbers.
But to completely ignore his stats is a little bit much as well, I would say.

My last comment on the matter:
He has played well as a Starter. Not sure there is any denying that.
Thus, that makes him capable of playing as a Starter.
If he slips up and starts playing like Crap, then fine.
But until he does, I see no reason to shit all over one of our young players trying to help us Win.

[joey_hesketh]

All joking aside, why the hell should I bother discussing a topic with someone who is not astute or interested enough to notice there are already two active threads discussing the same basic topic on the first page?

I don't disagree.
A Tidy RR Forum is a Happy RR Forum.

[Hugmenot]

He's shown to be an effective starter, according to his play, last year and this year.
So how can you now come out and make a statement like this.

What makes basketball statistics interesting from my perspective is the relative weights to give to offensive-vs-defensive stats, players-vs-floor-unit stats, and so on. Not even to speak of the *not publicly available* stats which can be measured by telemetry.

You seem to put a heavier emphasis on a player's individual stats than most posters here and that may explain why your conclusion is different.

I think you would have more success pointing out the specific things Bayless does well to show his value, or at least, to generate a conversation about the relative importance of these things.

[Prime]

Chauncey Billups is not a true PG?

He has all the qualities of a good PG: leadership, defense, etc.

However, he is not a true PG because of what he does on the offensive end.

[Hugmenot]

One specific (and basic) example, based upon http://www.82games.com/1112/11TOR3.HTM.

If you look at Bayless production per position, you can see Bayless posts a 14.2 PER as a PG and 11.4 as a SG. Furthermore, his oppoent counterpart posts a 10.5 PER when he is playing PG and 22.8 when he is playing SG.

Now I have some issues with the time distribution as I think the algorithm the site uses to determine who plays what position is far from perfect (Bargnani is still primarily a center according to this site). I also have issues that they do not measure the level of opposition but that is to be expected.

Nevertheless, the data suggests Bayless is a strong individual defender when defending PG but a weak individual defender when defending SG. I think most posters here would agree the data supports what we already knew and only the extend big deviation from the norm may be somewhat of a surprise. If I was a GM and believed Bayless is primarily a combo guard, I would try to identify the profile of the shooting guards Bayless can defend well to better assess his value.

I believe this is a nontrivial effort to measure but that many teams would make better personnel decisions if they were looking beyond basic stats.

Or maybe I am just trying to create jobs I can apply to when I retire.

[Matt52]

We know what your personal opinion is on the matter, Matt. Haha
You made it very clear with that Article you wrote.

And I understand it is more than just numbers. I've never once made it about just his numbers.
But to completely ignore his stats is a little bit much as well, I would say.

My last comment on the matter:
He has played well as a Starter. Not sure there is any denying that.
Thus, that makes him capable of playing as a Starter.
If he slips up and starts playing like Crap, then fine.
But until he does, I see no reason to shit all over one of our young players trying to help us Win.

And Joey your opinion is well known as well.


I don't think I've made my opinion clear based on the reply.

I have not and do not ignore the statistics. He has put up great stats. Unfortunately, basketball is more than a game of numbers and one must look at the context in which the numbers are put up. His numbers alone definitely makes him a capable starter in fantasy basketball but his decision-making and ability to lead a team is still very much in doubt - at least for me.

Instead of reposting my entire article, I'll just post the 2 questions I asked:

1) do you think he is capable of continuing this shooting pace indefinitely because he now starts? (54.3%) No
2) do you think you would feel the same about his prospects as the starting PG of the team had he shot his career and season average of 41% over the last 5 games? No


I'm not shitting on him, that is just reality. His shooting percentage is nearly 15% above his career average in the last 5 games. His decision making on shot selection is very questionable. Once again, just because a shot is made it does not make it a good shot. Also, his ability to get the ball to teammates in places where they can be successful or at the very least comfortable is lacking as well. Yes, he has 7.6 assists per game over the last 5, but considering there are about 90 possessions per game that leaves a lot of opportunity for failed offensive sets. Again, something the box score and the stats won't tell but what one can easily pick up on throughout the game when watching.

[saints91]

Also, his ability to get the ball to teammates in places where they can be successful or at the very least comfortable is lacking as well. Yes, he has 7.6 assists per game over the last 5, but considering there are about 90 possessions per game that leaves a lot of opportunity for failed offensive sets. Again, something the box score and the stats won't tell but what one can easily pick up on throughout the game when watching.

This is something that I have been watching over the last four games, and I didn't want to say it because I felt people would just jump all over it. Go back on watch the games and see what baskets he is getting assists on. I have been watching the games and following the stats on NBA.com and the majority of assists he has been getting have been on difficult contested shots, or when a player receives the pass and has to create something out of it. Yes, Bayless has made some nice passes during his starts, but he hasn't been setting up his teammates when they are wide open. There have been plenty of opportunities as Matt has mentioned.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Couple of things.....

I think if youre determining that Bayless CAN or CANNOT be the starting PG based on what currently going on with him and the team, then its all moot point. Its pointless to discuss. Why? Because one, the team is not playing for anything. Casey already said its audition time for both Bayless and Forbes. Two, no training camp and no practices. If youre new to a team, you cant avoid to be individualistic at time because you are not accustomed as to how your teammates play. If you think Calderon is a psychic because he sees teammates who are open or cutting, then youre mistaken. He anticipates. He knows when Amir gives him that pick that he's going to slide down, he knows when Demar curls, that he's going to cut to the basket. These things you learn from camp and practices and chemistry with teammates. Bayless doesnt know that, YET. To talk about his game right now and make it seem like thats going to be his game till he retires is i think is a bit unfair.

Ive seen him pass to the open man, ive seen him do the pick and roll, but yes, not as precise and often as Calderon. But we all have seen that he is capable of doing it.

Lastly, does his inadequacies outweigh what he can? I believe so. Like i said, you can tell him to slow down and pass, but you cant tell Calderon to take over the game in the dying seconds. And now, dont think of this as a knack to Calderon, what im saying here is some things are just fixable, and some are hard to teach.

[saints91]

Calderon is a good shooter. He has taken a few "game on the line" shots this year. Some he has made, some he has not. He is a gifted shooter, and I would say if he took the 13 plus shots that Bayless takes, I think on average he would have similar to better results.

But this isn't a Calderon vs. Bayless thread

[saints91]

The basic discussion has been is he the PG of the future, and should he be retained. Based on his career and talents as a PG, I should say let him walk. The last five games have been inspiring, if he can continue to show that he can improve his PG skills (passing, getting players involved, running the offence) then he definitely should be kept for the right price. He has to learn how to play like this off the bench though.