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Thread: Everything Jerryd Bayless

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    I would like to add to this list,

    court vision and basketball IQ working together: Looking at an offensive set and anticipating what the defence is trying to do. Moving to different areas to shift the defence and exploit the set. He forces way to much. He passes into difficult situations. Watch Nash, Calderon, and other good point guards. How often does Calderon drive to the basket knowing that he isn;t going to shoot, but it's just to make the defence adjust. It's more than a drive and kick.

    I think he places more value on his individual stat sheet more than getting his team mates involved. Once again you can tell players like Calderon and Nash both rather see their team mates succeed over themselves. They take pleasure in seeing ball movement. Bayless will pass once but once that ball come back to him, he's taking it.

    This isn't necessarily a PG thing, but it annoys the hell out of me:

    The inability to recognize that your shot isn't falling that night. Yes he is aggressive, but if you are shooting well, stop shooting and do other things. He doesn't get it.
    100% agree on both saints91 and Nilanka's take.

    It's never been argued that he can score. He can score. But he's not a PG that I think can help a good team win games, and the more I see, the more I believe that, including last night's "good numbers" game. Poor decision-maker, can't handle pressure D, and way to easy to goad into a one-on-one battle. A PG also has to be the voice of the coach on the floor, which takes discipline and a dedication to team play over all. Bayless hasn't shown that.

    I'm not a hater, either -- Bayless can score, and he's a passionate, hard-nosed player. I just don't want him running the Raptors offense on a regular basis long-term.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    OMG!

    People just cannot give this guy any credit. Listen very carefully:

    Whenever he gets a chance to start he scores like 16-20 pts gets atleast 5 ast and 3 reb. That is not just the last 3 games, we saw it in the last 15 games of the previous year as well. His defense is an improvement over Jose also. This guy is a very good player, this extreme prejudice towards him is unjustified.

    I was one of the people saying at the beginning of this year that he should be starting over Jose. After watching Jose play this year I'm not so sure about that anymore. But if this team didn't have Jose I would not be worried, cause I know Bayless is legit.

    The more this guy gets a chance to start the better he will be, thats right he is ONLY 23 years of age! That means he is going to continue to improve, he is young as hell. I can see him developing into a deadly draw-and-kick point guard, using his ability to penetrate into the lane.

    I'm excited about his potential and every other raptors fan should also be.
    Im not endorsing it for a full season, but i would like to see a couple of games Bayless start and Jose backup, just to see what happens.

    The reason is because Bayless style of play is aggressive. If he starts knocking down shots early, and getting everybody to play aggressive, he can give the Raps a lead which Jose can come in and maintain. If he plays bad, Jose can calm the flow and integrate his sure offense, which is the pick and roll or find Bargnani.

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    If Bayless can average more than 6 assists a game for however long Jose is out (I assume it will be at least 5 more games) I think there is something to him. Having a scoring point is not a bad thing as long as he keeps the team involved.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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  4. #64
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    he had no defensive pressure on him at all last night & his ball distribution was still very mediocre..he looks very uncomfortable leading an offence..J.Johnson is a better passer..... he still has major issues converting and 1's...he cant finish at the rim in traffic.. he tends to get too carried away with 1on1 battles.. hes not starter quality & i doubt he ever will be..

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    If Bayless can average more than 6 assists a game for however long Jose is out (I assume it will be at least 5 more games) I think there is something to him. Having a scoring point is not a bad thing as long as he keeps the team involved.
    He had 6 assists against Milwaukee and I thought he played a poor game.

    He can't be a ball stopper which is what he has been at times when he looks for himself. If he consistently played within the concept of 'team' I don't think there would be many Jerryd "Haters".

  6. #66
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Here is how we know Jerryd Bayless is not a starting point guard in the NBA, regardless of how many great ideas (which I don't discourage) people on this board can come up with:

    - This is Jerryd Bayless' 4th season in the NBA. He's played in 223 games and has started 33 games in his career.

    - He has never started an NBA game as the starting point guard when the regular starter was healthy.

    - On a rebuilding team that has not even won a third of its games over the past 2 seasons, Bayless has never started a game as PG out of his own merit. That means he's never been able to play his way to a starting PG role. The minute the regular starter was healthy, he was coming off the bench again. Remember when TJ Ford got hurt and Jose took over, and then he was so good there were questions as to who should be the starter as soon as TJ Ford got healthy? And then they traded Ford? That has NEVER happened for Bayless. Never.

    - He's started 8 games this season as SG, but not PG. Again, this is on a team that is rebuilding and trying to feel out what players it has and what talent is there, and he's on the bench the minute Calderon feels healthy enough to go.

    Again I think that we all have great ideas as to how good a player could be, but the bottom line is he hasn't shown the consistency needed. Yes he's 23 and young. So what. Kwame Brown was once 23 too. Simply not good enough. Pray the Raptors make the right move, which is to move on without him.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    If he values stats and playing time, he wouldve requested for a trade long ago.
    A player who has yet to demonstrate he is good enough to be a starter on any team would likely alienate all General Managers if he were to demand a trade claiming he deserves more playing time.

    Bayless is already on his 3rd team and frankly, publicly asking to be traded would likely label him as a "problem" and shorten his career. Better to put up a good face and get millions of reasons to smile after his next contract.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    how do you determine that he doesnt have court vision and basketball iq? because of turnovers?
    I believe there are a few measure to help quantity these attributes.

    A basic metric is to chart what is the proportion of passes which leads to open looks, and where. For example, a pass to a wide open wing for a corner three attempt is worth more than a pass to tightly guarded player 12 feet away from the basket.

    A complex metrics which is more difficult to measure is to analyze each play and determine if the player made the right decision by estimating his teammates (including those who were not the recipient of the pass) likelihood to score when he passed the ball. That would tell you whether he passed to the best option when he made the pass.

    Another complex metric is to determine when teammates where in a good scoring position and how often does he recognize those situations and pass them the ball. That would tell you something about his court vision.

    In my opinion, the technology already exists to measure these things and teams have the resources to hire the manpower to chart plays should they ever believe the information gathered would give them a significant competitive advantage.

    I am not convinced it would.

  8. #68
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    A player who has yet to demonstrate he is good enough to be a starter on any team would likely alienate all General Managers if he were to demand a trade claiming he deserves more playing time.

    Bayless is already on his 3rd team and frankly, publicly asking to be traded would likely label him as a "problem" and shorten his career. Better to put up a good face and get millions of reasons to smile after his next contract.


    I believe there are a few measure to help quantity these attributes.

    A basic metric is to chart what is the proportion of passes which leads to open looks, and where. For example, a pass to a wide open wing for a corner three attempt is worth more than a pass to tightly guarded player 12 feet away from the basket.

    A complex metrics which is more difficult to measure is to analyze each play and determine if the player made the right decision by estimating his teammates (including those who were not the recipient of the pass) likelihood to score when he passed the ball. That would tell you whether he passed to the best option when he made the pass.

    Another complex metric is to determine when teammates where in a good scoring position and how often does he recognize those situations and pass them the ball. That would tell you something about his court vision.

    In my opinion, the technology already exists to measure these things and teams have the resources to hire the manpower to chart plays should they ever believe the information gathered would give them a significant competitive advantage.

    I am not convinced it would.
    This might be a little naive on my part but one could also watch the game. Stats are a wonderful and helpful thing but there is still a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Hater right here.

    FuK JB, wrap him up and ship him out. I only wish they'd of let him get some digits earlier so it could up his trade value. He's a terrible point guard in the Mike James "lookit me" mould. No one other than Bargs was getting anything in a position to score and JB was bailed out by lackadaisical play by Clevelands back court (looks like they prepped for this game planning on making Jose work laterally where he's weak and didn't adjust to Bayless at all) and some mighty prayers. On the positive side he played all out and really hung some digits on the Cavs although DeMar & James Johnson barely saw the rock all night and only managed some good views of Bayless launching with 20 seconds still on the clock or pounding the ball into the ground for a whole possession. He also constantly picks up his dribble (one of my biggest pet peeves) and can't seem to run a fast break for anyone other than himself.

    Lastly, when Kyrie got a lil heated after Jerryd punked him (on a lucky ass shot, ***) he started to destroy Bayless' "defence and was treating him like he was Jose with a bad hammy. The only reason that KI got reigned in is because Byron Scott knows he can't let his star PG play like it's a pick up game and that he has to run the offence first and foremost, win or lose.

    Bayless has the tools but his gargantuan ego prevents him from ever grasping the nuances of the NBA point guard game.

  10. #70
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Here is how we know Jerryd Bayless is not a starting point guard in the NBA, regardless of how many great ideas (which I don't discourage) people on this board can come up with:

    - This is Jerryd Bayless' 4th season in the NBA. He's played in 223 games and has started 33 games in his career.

    - He has never started an NBA game as the starting point guard when the regular starter was healthy.

    - On a rebuilding team that has not even won a third of its games over the past 2 seasons, Bayless has never started a game as PG out of his own merit. That means he's never been able to play his way to a starting PG role. The minute the regular starter was healthy, he was coming off the bench again. Remember when TJ Ford got hurt and Jose took over, and then he was so good there were questions as to who should be the starter as soon as TJ Ford got healthy? And then they traded Ford? That has NEVER happened for Bayless. Never.

    - He's started 8 games this season as SG, but not PG. Again, this is on a team that is rebuilding and trying to feel out what players it has and what talent is there, and he's on the bench the minute Calderon feels healthy enough to go.

    Again I think that we all have great ideas as to how good a player could be, but the bottom line is he hasn't shown the consistency needed. Yes he's 23 and young. So what. Kwame Brown was once 23 too. Simply not good enough. Pray the Raptors make the right move, which is to move on without him.
    Amen, brother!

    The fact that two other teams passed on him should also give you an idea of their overall impression of him as a pg-of-the-future. Portland was looking for a legit starting PG before, during and after Bayless was on their roster. The best they've done is Andre Miller, Steve Blake and Ray Felton... they didn't view Bayless as being any better (or seemingly with even the potential to become better) than those players. That should also tell you something.

    I hope Bayless' recent good play (ie: scoring, not running the team) has some playoff teams looking for a short term rental for a younger, cheaper version of Barbosa (I could see the Lakers, Clippers, Celtics among others, being interested at the right price).

  11. #71
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    he had no defensive pressure on him at all last night & his ball distribution was still very mediocre..he looks very uncomfortable leading an offence..J.Johnson is a better passer..... he still has major issues converting and 1's...he cant finish at the rim in traffic.. he tends to get too carried away with 1on1 battles.. hes not starter quality & i doubt he ever will be..
    Bayless here, hold on a minute while I turn this defender inside out!!! If you had mad skills, wouldn't you be enamoured with them too? I have to agree with you, but my major concern is finishing at the rim in traffic down the stretch of games. Don't know that he will ever be good enough at that as his game improves. I still believe we should sign this guy long term cheap and develop him. Some team is going to love to have this guy and we will be in a position to exploit that!!!

  12. #72
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Draft wrote: View Post
    Bayless here, hold on a minute while I turn this defender inside out!!! If you had mad skills, wouldn't you be enamoured with them too? I have to agree with you, but my major concern is finishing at the rim in traffic down the stretch of games. Don't know that he will ever be good enough at that as his game improves. I still believe we should sign this guy long term cheap and develop him. Some team is going to love to have this guy and we will be in a position to exploit that!!!
    The problem with that idea is that his qualifying offer is over $4M, which would likely have built-in increases for each year thereafter. Signing a player for $4M+ per season on the hopes that he will develop into the type of player that he hasn't shown he can/will do through 4 years of being in the NBA, while simultaneously making him an asset that would be much harder to trade (ie: older, more expensive, long-term contract, more years proving that he's NOT a true PG), is something that would get a GM fired. I say trade him or let him walk.

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Only 24 games of Bayless in a Raptors uniform left. Huzzah!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    how do you determine that he doesnt have court vision and basketball iq? because of turnovers?
    Lol, he actually turns the ball over less than Calderon.

    Y'all that don't even want to give him a chance when he has put up 18/7 (very, very efficiently) are simply crazy. We don't have the luxury of being so choosy. It's all because he isn't a true PG, not because of this other garbage being spewed.

  15. #75
    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    We'll see tonight, if the Bayless lovers are loud and proud!

  16. #76
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He had 6 assists against Milwaukee and I thought he played a poor game.

    He can't be a ball stopper which is what he has been at times when he looks for himself. If he consistently played within the concept of 'team' I don't think there would be many Jerryd "Haters".
    I didnt see the game so im basing it on stats, 54%FG, 6asts and 1 TO, in 28mins for a poor game, i think thats a bit harsh. Considering your 2 best scorers, who play on the ball most of the time were a mere ~40%FG that night and your big, who usually gets the pass from the PG, got 12pts on 6of7FG. Im not saying that Amir got all the good passes from Bayless, but he probably did.

    And like i said, this is why training camp and practices in between games are very important. its on Bayless dont get me wrong, but what im saying is you cant totally write him off without the proper procedure put in place first. And im not saying he IS the future PG of this team, im saying he CAN be, once we see what he can do given the right procedure.

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    A player who has yet to demonstrate he is good enough to be a starter on any team would likely alienate all General Managers if he were to demand a trade claiming he deserves more playing time.

    Bayless is already on his 3rd team and frankly, publicly asking to be traded would likely label him as a "problem" and shorten his career. Better to put up a good face and get millions of reasons to smile after his next contract.


    I believe there are a few measure to help quantity these attributes.

    A basic metric is to chart what is the proportion of passes which leads to open looks, and where. For example, a pass to a wide open wing for a corner three attempt is worth more than a pass to tightly guarded player 12 feet away from the basket.

    A complex metrics which is more difficult to measure is to analyze each play and determine if the player made the right decision by estimating his teammates (including those who were not the recipient of the pass) likelihood to score when he passed the ball. That would tell you whether he passed to the best option when he made the pass.

    Another complex metric is to determine when teammates where in a good scoring position and how often does he recognize those situations and pass them the ball. That would tell you something about his court vision.

    In my opinion, the technology already exists to measure these things and teams have the resources to hire the manpower to chart plays should they ever believe the information gathered would give them a significant competitive advantage.

    I am not convinced it would.
    Thats actually a good point. A trade demand wouldve ended his career.

    Would you happen to know where we can see Bayless' metrics?

  18. #78
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I didnt see the game so im basing it on stats, 54%FG, 6asts and 1 TO, in 28mins for a poor game, i think thats a bit harsh. Considering your 2 best scorers, who play on the ball most of the time were a mere ~40%FG that night and your big, who usually gets the pass from the PG, got 12pts on 6of7FG. Im not saying that Amir got all the good passes from Bayless, but he probably did.

    And like i said, this is why training camp and practices in between games are very important. its on Bayless dont get me wrong, but what im saying is you cant totally write him off without the proper procedure put in place first. And im not saying he IS the future PG of this team, im saying he CAN be, once we see what he can do given the right procedure.
    In your opinion, does Bayless' evaluation period last beyond this season?

    The reason I ask is because it's likely that by April 26th (i.e. the final game of the season), we won't have any more intuition about Bayless' future than we do now.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #79
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This might be a little naive on my part but one could also watch the game. Stats are a wonderful and helpful thing but there is still a great amount of subjectivity in evaluating talent.
    I agree. But watching games can also be subjective as well.

  20. #80
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Amen, brother!

    The fact that two other teams passed on him should also give you an idea of their overall impression of him as a pg-of-the-future. Portland was looking for a legit starting PG before, during and after Bayless was on their roster. The best they've done is Andre Miller, Steve Blake and Ray Felton... they didn't view Bayless as being any better (or seemingly with even the potential to become better) than those players. That should also tell you something.

    I hope Bayless' recent good play (ie: scoring, not running the team) has some playoff teams looking for a short term rental for a younger, cheaper version of Barbosa (I could see the Lakers, Clippers, Celtics among others, being interested at the right price).
    Actually, Portland already had a legit starting PG in Blake, and he was perfect since they didnt need a scoring PG because Roy had the ball most of the time anyways. Pretty much like Kobe and the Lakers. Doesnt matter what PG you put beside Kobe or Roy, those PGs are not going to make them any better. And on his 2nd year with POR, they acquire Miller. Would you pass up on the savvy veteran for a sophomore?

    You cant write him off just because he wasnt given the opportunity off the bat. If the Raptors disregarded Amir coz he never played more than 10mins in Detroit, would we see how he is now?

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