View Poll Results: Should the Raptors Linvest at all costs?

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  • Yes

    4 10.81%
  • No

    33 89.19%
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Thread: Lin to the Raptors a good idea? Lin Raptors Plan B? (168)

  1. #61
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    Why is everyone still high on Lin? His wonder week is over. He's a scrub. The only reason he is still getting significant minutes is because he sells tickets. I mean for the past 5 games or so he's been shooting like 30% and averaging like 6 TO's.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Starter RPT23's Avatar
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    I think Lin is a feel good story and everyone had high hopes that he would turn into something like a megastar in the NBA. I could not bare to think what it would be like to wear his shoes, having the weight of a world sit on his shoulders telling him he's the best or he doesn't deserve all this praise. It's got to wear on him mentally. But I'm sure he wouldn't have it any other way. He's going through a rough time right now so how he ends the season (or makes the playoff) will definitely give some sort of indication of the type of player he is or can be. I think from that standpoint, would be better to judge if he can be part of the Toronto Raptors...
    #Raptor4Life, #Prepping4thePlayoffs

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Rookie Delonte_West's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    If Lin was a black guy named DeShawn and had the exact same skill/talent as Lin, would it be a good idea? There's your answer.
    this to be honest

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    Why is everyone still high on Lin? His wonder week is over. He's a scrub. The only reason he is still getting significant minutes is because he sells tickets. I mean for the past 5 games or so he's been shooting like 30% and averaging like 6 TO's.
    That's a bit over the top; if I include the last two games after the five games you mention (7 games total) Lin is averaging about 15pts 3,5 reb, 7 ass, 2 stl, 0,5 blk and 3,7 to while shooting 44% from the field and 86% from the stripe.

    Yes the turnovers are high, but overall his stats aren't anywhere near what you claim them to be and certainly he cannot be considered a scrub based on these stats.

    You also have to take into account that he is (was) expected to do a lot for New York, he had a usage rate of almost 30% (4th amongst point guards, about 10th in the league).

    Btw, his turnover rate is only slightly above the turnover rate of Nash, who some people want to play here next year (4th and 5th amongst pg's playing at least 20 games and 20 minutes a game).

    Stats from hoopdata and nba.com

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wow, someone save this. This illustrates exactly what I was pointing out earlier. This guy has Rafer Alston disappointment written all over him.

    Prime, this whole time when I was saying I would be worried about him being overpaid by the Raptors I had the full MLE in my mind. That's far too much.
    Yet you are content with handing out the same amount of money to an aging PG who plays no defense and is only a marginally better playmaker.

    Ain't that some shit.

  6. #66
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Yet you are content with handing out the same amount of money to an aging PG who plays no defense and is only a marginally better playmaker.

    Ain't that some shit.
    Who is this mystery PG? I know it can't be Calderon because he's more than "marginally better" at making plays.

    Also if you compare Calderon's play when he earned that deal to Lin's play now it's not even close.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Who is this mystery PG? I know it can't be Calderon because he's more than "marginally better" at making plays.

    Also if you compare Calderon's play when he earned that deal to Lin's play now it's not even close.
    Let's compare Jose's best season (the one "when he earned that deal") with Lin this season.

    PER AST/36 FTA FG% P/36 REB/36 STL/36 Salary Next Season
    Jose (07-08) 20.5 9.4 1.5 52 13.4 3.4 1.3 7.5M
    Lin 20.6 8.5 5.3 46 19.9 4.1 2.2 ???
    1. Jose is clearly only marginally better in assists. Please come back once you understand the meaning of marginally, thanks.
    2. Outside of FG% Lin is a much better offensive and defensive player. The only thing holding him back is his turnovers hence the lower than expected PER.
    3. Jose's next contract began at 7.5M, which is afaik, 141% of that season's MLE. Adjusting for inflation that would mean that he earned ~8.1M in real terms. I'm talking about getting Lin this year for 5.8M, or 71% of that price. I don't see how this could be anything else but a bargain.
    Last edited by Prime; Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:01 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Let's compare Jose's best season (the one "when he earned that deal") with Lin this season.

    PER AST/36 FTA FG% P/36 REB/36 STL/36 Salary Next Season
    Jose (07-08) 20.5 9.4 1.5 52 13.4 3.4 1.3 7.5M
    Lin 20.6 8.5 5.3 46 19.9 4.1 2.2 ???
    1. Jose is clearly only marginally better in assists. Please come back once you understand the meaning of marginally, thanks.
    2. Outside of FG% Lin is a much better offensive and defensive player. The only thing holding him back is his turnovers hence the lower than expected PER.
    3. Jose's next contract began at 7.5M, which is afaik, 141% of that season's MLE. Adjusting for inflation that would mean that he earned ~8.1M in real terms. I'm talking about getting Lin this year for 5.8M, or 71% of that price. I don't see how this could be anything else but a bargain.
    Where are the stats for turn overs? Or how many games played ? Pretty sure Jose proved himself over the course of a season (or more) whereas Jeremy Lin has had a nice 5 games under a coach who would've turned Jose into the Spanish Steve Nash.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Let's compare Jose's best season (the one "when he earned that deal") with Lin this season.

    PER AST/36 FTA FG% P/36 REB/36 STL/36 Salary Next Season
    Jose (07-08) 20.5 9.4 1.5 52 13.4 3.4 1.3 7.5M
    Lin 20.6 8.5 5.3 46 19.9 4.1 2.2 ???
    1. Jose is clearly only marginally better in assists. Please come back once you understand the meaning of marginally, thanks.
    2. Outside of FG% Lin is a much better offensive and defensive player. The only thing holding him back is his turnovers hence the lower than expected PER.
    3. Jose's next contract began at 7.5M, which is afaik, 141% of that season's MLE. Adjusting for inflation that would mean that he earned ~8.1M in real terms. I'm talking about getting Lin this year for 5.8M, or 71% of that price. I don't see how this could be anything else but a bargain.
    Lol your argument is useless. Lin played like what 19 games under D'antoni? and he's averaged like 5 or 6 turnovers. Btw Lin is averaging 15 ppg, 6 apg and 3 rbpg so stop inflating his stats more than they already are. If you put jerryd bayless is the same position with d'antoni he would have averaged better numbers then Lin. It was like Mike james with Toronto and look at him now

  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    tomorrow JB Vs Lin is a matchup to see. JB will eat Lin alive on defense and offense, The hit man's already marked his target. Lin is definitely pretty high on his hit list.

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Lin went scrub-hunting tonight. His prey? Jerryd Bayless.


    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wow, someone save this. This illustrates exactly what I was pointing out earlier. This guy has Rafer Alston disappointment written all over him.
    Rafer Alston just went off for 16/3/10 with 3 TOs, and a block plus steal on 60% shooting against your boy Jose. I guess we should go get him out of the D-League?
    Last edited by Prime; Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 10:18 PM.

  12. #72
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Lin went scrub-hunting tonight. His prey? Jerryd Bayless.
    ?

    Pretty sure he did almost ALL of his damage against Jose ...

    Which is Par for the course.
    In Masai we Trust.

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    So tell me again why we wouldn't want a guy like this for the MLE?

  14. #74
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Because he's fool's gold. Just wait until the playoffs.

  15. #75
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Irrelevant, but I'll play along.

    Last time I checked Jose wasn't even grade B beef in the playoffs.

  16. #76
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    It's not irrelevant. You want the Raptors to empty out their wallets on a guy with no proven track record.

    Jose Calderon has played at the highest level, at a championship level, numerous times internationally. Based on the trend of this thread you're probably going to scoff at that but the pressure is just as great, if not more intense in international play. European fans a crazy at times in comparison to North American fans. Regardless of that, I'm not a strong supporter of Calderon either, I just feel he's a much better PG than Jeremy Lin. Calderon has a long, proven track record in many different situations. Jeremy Lin has very little track record at all. My point about the playoffs is that things change in the playoffs. Teams right now who are likely to draw the Knicks are probably already scouting Lin hardcore. No doubt looking to feast on his poor judgement with the ball, at times. Not to mention that but playoffs ball slows down a lot. So to review Prime, in the playoffs Lin will have to overcome harder defense and a half court system. If he does that I'll be warming up.

    The Raptors have a number of good options to take with the future of their PG spot. There are more proven avenues to proceed down. One of them would be simply waiting a year and seeing what's available then. To give Jeremy Lin full MLE is jumping the gun. Let someone else take the gamble and if it works out there's always next time.

    One final point I'll make. The Knicks are going to match any offer for him so what's the point of even debating it?

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    1. Lin vs Jose is ridiculous. Lin is a basically a rookie and Jose has been around for a long time.
    2. If I had to choose, Lin at ~$5.5M is not that bad compared when you consider Jose's salary and the fact that he does not fit into our future plans. Just look at the way Lin torched us last night as proof, if you needed any.

    Still, no matter how much you like Jeremy Lin, there is no way in hell he is worth the full MLE. Wait, didn't I just say he was better value than Jose? Well of course he is, Jose has possibly the worst contract amongst all starting point guards in the league. Thank God that ugly beast is over next year. I love Jose but that guy is making way, way, way too much money for what he brings.

    Lin at $5.5M would be a great because he's young and has a lot of areas he can work on to get better. He could completely flop, but $5.5M is not that bad. Amir Johnson could have completely flopped too and everyone thought that contract was decent at the time of signing. But in terms of value from a Raptors perspective we'd be far better off looking elsewhere. For example, does anyone think Lin is twice as good as Jrue Holiday, who will make $2.67M next year? Is he as good as Kyrie Irving? For your reference, here are a few notable 2012-2013 NBA point guard salaries (this list will also show how grossly overpaid Calderon is):

    Chris Paul ($17.78M)
    Deron Williams ($17.78M)
    Derrick Rose ($15.51M)
    Russell Westbrook ($12.92M)
    Tony Parker ($12.50M)
    Rajon Rondo ($11.00M)
    Jose Calderon ($10.56M) <---
    Jameer Nelson ($8.60M)
    Devin Harris ($8.50M)
    Mike Conley ($7.31M)
    John Wall ($5.92M)
    Kyle Lowry ($5.75M)
    Jeremy Lin (~$5.5M) <---
    Jarrett Jack ($5.40M)
    Kyrie Irving ($5.38M)
    Jamal Crawford ($5.23M)
    Ramon Sessions ($4.55M)
    Mario Chalmers ($4.00M)
    Stephen Curry ($3.96M)
    Ricky Rubio ($3.74M)
    Brandon Jennings ($3.18M)
    Brandon Knight ($2.68M)
    Jrue Holiday ($2.67M)
    Ty Lawson ($2.54M)
    Kemba Walker ($2.46M)
    Jeff Teague ($2.43M)
    Darren Collison ($2.32M)
    Rodrigue Beaubois ($2.23M)
    Isaiah Thomas ($0.76M)
    your pal,
    ebrian

  18. #78
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    1. Lin vs Jose is ridiculous. Lin is a basically a rookie and Jose has been around for a long time.
    2. If I had to choose, Lin at ~$5.5M is not that bad compared when you consider Jose's salary and the fact that he does not fit into our future plans. Just look at the way Lin torched us last night as proof, if you needed any.

    Still, no matter how much you like Jeremy Lin, there is no way in hell he is worth the full MLE. Wait, didn't I just say he was better value than Jose? Well of course he is, Jose has possibly the worst contract amongst all starting point guards in the league. Thank God that ugly beast is over next year. I love Jose but that guy is making way, way, way too much money for what he brings.

    Lin at $5.5M would be a great because he's young and has a lot of areas he can work on to get better. He could completely flop, but $5.5M is not that bad. Amir Johnson could have completely flopped too and everyone thought that contract was decent at the time of signing. But in terms of value from a Raptors perspective we'd be far better off looking elsewhere. For example, does anyone think Lin is twice as good as Jrue Holiday, who will make $2.67M next year? Is he as good as Kyrie Irving? For your reference, here are a few notable 2012-2013 NBA point guard salaries (this list will also show how grossly overpaid Calderon is):

    Chris Paul ($17.78M)
    Deron Williams ($17.78M)
    Derrick Rose ($15.51M)
    Russell Westbrook ($12.92M)
    Tony Parker ($12.50M)
    Rajon Rondo ($11.00M)
    Jose Calderon ($10.56M) <---
    Jameer Nelson ($8.60M)
    Devin Harris ($8.50M)
    Mike Conley ($7.31M)
    John Wall ($5.92M)
    Kyle Lowry ($5.75M)
    Jeremy Lin (~$5.5M) <---
    Jarrett Jack ($5.40M)
    Kyrie Irving ($5.38M)
    Jamal Crawford ($5.23M)
    Ramon Sessions ($4.55M)
    Mario Chalmers ($4.00M)
    Stephen Curry ($3.96M)
    Ricky Rubio ($3.74M)
    Brandon Jennings ($3.18M)
    Brandon Knight ($2.68M)
    Jrue Holiday ($2.67M)
    Ty Lawson ($2.54M)
    Kemba Walker ($2.46M)
    Jeff Teague ($2.43M)
    Darren Collison ($2.32M)
    Rodrigue Beaubois ($2.23M)
    Isaiah Thomas ($0.76M)
    Do you realize Jose only has one season left after this one? This idea of Jose Calderon's contract being horrible is totally blown out of proportion. If anything his contract is highly valuable because we're talking the expiring contract of a highly productive PG. There are going to be many teams calling about adding him for a playoff run next season. Just listing 2011/12 contract values isn't enough to gauge a contract's worth. You need to consider time. Time is just as important as the money involved.

  19. #79
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    It's interesting how a majority of the PG contracts in the league are on rookie salaries... A lot of these contracts will go up in a year or two once those contracts end. Guys like Lowry, Wall, Irving, Jennings, Rubio, Lawson, Curry will command a lot of coin in their next contract.

    I don't think it's fair to include rookie salaries when making a point about Jose's salary - yes its very high and he's not worth it, but in fairness if you removed the rookie contracts from your list.. it wouldn't look as bad.

  20. #80
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    It's not irrelevant. You want the Raptors to empty out their wallets on a guy with no proven track record.
    Our cap space is definitely going to be more than 5.8M. Try again.
    Jose Calderon has played at the highest level, at a championship level, numerous times internationally. Based on the trend of this thread you're probably going to scoff at that but the pressure is just as great, if not more intense in international play. European fans a crazy at times in comparison to North American fans. Regardless of that, I'm not a strong supporter of Calderon either, I just feel he's a much better PG than Jeremy Lin. Calderon has a long, proven track record in many different situations.
    Yes, but if anything he's proved that he's a nonfactor in the playoffs. I don't see how this helps your case at all.

    The way I see it, from your angle it'd still be better to take a chance on a young up-and-comer rather than someone of Jose's caliber.
    The Raptors have a number of good options to take with the future of their PG spot. There are more proven avenues to proceed down. One of them would be simply waiting a year and seeing what's available then. To give Jeremy Lin full MLE is jumping the gun. Let someone else take the gamble and if it works out there's always next time.
    Name me one that has the playoff experience you covet so badly.
    One final point I'll make. The Knicks are going to match any offer for him so what's the point of even debating it?
    Then why don't you go ahead and delete the thread? Last time I checked the thread title was "Would Lin in Toronto be a good idea?" not "Can we get Lin here next year?".

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