View Poll Results: Should the Raptors Linvest at all costs?

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  • Yes

    4 10.81%
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    33 89.19%
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Thread: Lin to the Raptors a good idea? Lin Raptors Plan B? (168)

  1. #81
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Our cap space is definitely going to be more than 5.8M. Try again.
    It was a figure of speech, not meant to be taken literally.

    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Yes, but if anything he's proved that he's a nonfactor in the playoffs. I don't see how this helps your case at all.
    Most people don't make such strong judgments on players in such small sample sizes like you do. I've just explained he's performed at a high level in the highest of pressure situations. Go look at his international resume.

    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Name me one that has the playoff experience you covet so badly.
    I don't "covet it so badly". I'm telling you I don't trust Lin based on such a small window and the playoffs offer a real test seeing how by the end of the season the window is still so small.

    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Then why don't you go ahead and delete the thread? Last time I checked the thread title was "Would Lin in Toronto be a good idea?" not "Can we get Lin here next year?".
    I can tell you're a Lin super fan but you need to calm down here. I'm offering up the voice of reason. If you want no counter points then go to his fan club website.

  2. #82
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Lin is an average PG and a borderline starter in the NBA. He plays with 2 superstars who draw all the attention from the opposing team and in a system that is still built around the PG. In addition to the 2 superstars, he has several sharpshooters and athletes (ie: fast break opportunities), which allow his stats to become inflated.

    If Toronto's "shooters" (ie: Butler, DeRozan, Kleiza, JJ) could knock down open baskets with any sort of consistency (at least up to league averages), Calderon's assist totals/average would be significantly higher than it already is this season. My point is that stats alone don't paint a fair picture, especially when attempting to compare players.

    Lin is not worth the full MLE, given his personal talent level, track record and high turnover numbers. Plus, with all this "Linsanity" nonsense, you can bet that several teams will be willing to throw around the max MLE just for the marketability he brings. Plus, NY is likely to match any offer, or else their fans might riot.

    So, to answer the question posed by the thread, given the player in question and the likely cost of acquiring him, there is no way in hell that I want to see Jeremy Lin on the Raptors next season or ever. He is extremely overrated and will wind up being extremely overpaid as a result of "Linsanity".

  3. #83
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Most people don't make such strong judgments on players in such small sample sizes like you do. I've just explained he's performed at a high level in the highest of pressure situations. Go look at his international resume.
    I see the pot is calling the kettle black. Go read your comments on page 2.
    I don't "covet it so badly". I'm telling you I don't trust Lin based on such a small window and the playoffs offer a real test seeing how by the end of the season the window is still so small.
    See above.
    I can tell you're a Lin super fan but you need to calm down here. I'm offering up the voice of reason. If you want no counter points then go to his fan club website.
    Ad hominem. Next.

  4. #84
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    5,5mln wouldn't be that much for Lin, but still he's extremely overhyped, the system is inflating his stats, melo and stat are freeing him up and i dont see him being anything above average, but i wouldnt be disapointed with the signing, toronto had alot of contracts that were much worse than 5,5mil

  5. #85
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Irrelevant, but I'll play along.

    Last time I checked Jose wasn't even grade B beef in the playoffs.
    Lin is playing with 2 all stars... case closed.

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Lin is an average PG and a borderline starter in the NBA. He plays with 2 superstars who draw all the attention from the opposing team and in a system that is still built around the PG. In addition to the 2 superstars, he has several sharpshooters and athletes (ie: fast break opportunities), which allow his stats to become inflated.

    If Toronto's "shooters" (ie: Butler, DeRozan, Kleiza, JJ) could knock down open baskets with any sort of consistency (at least up to league averages), Calderon's assist totals/average would be significantly higher than it already is this season. My point is that stats alone don't paint a fair picture, especially when attempting to compare players.
    Carmelo is having the worst season of his career by far. Amare is playing well below his usual standards and wasn't even selected for the All-Star team. Neither is the superstar that you claim they are.

    The only sharpshooter on that team is Novak. The Knicks as a whole shoot a lower % on 3s than the Raptors.

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Lin is playing with 2 all stars... case closed.
    Amare isn't an All-Star. Case closed.

  7. #87
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    NY wont let their most marketable asset go.

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Carmelo is having the worst season of his career by far. Amare is playing well below his usual standards and wasn't even selected for the All-Star team. Neither is the superstar that you claim they are.

    The only sharpshooter on that team is Novak. The Knicks as a whole shoot a lower % on 3s than the Raptors.

    Amare isn't an All-Star. Case closed.
    Do you even watch basketball? Amar'e is a 6 time nba all star... they are both considered all stars and no matter how bad their season is going the defense is still going to pay much more attention to them than a guy like lin who is at best and average starter. Your obsession with Lin is is blinding you from the truth. If you like lin soo much why don't you go watch the knicks?

  9. #89
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Carmelo is having the worst season of his career by far. Amare is playing well below his usual standards and wasn't even selected for the All-Star team. Neither is the superstar that you claim they are.

    The only sharpshooter on that team is Novak. The Knicks as a whole shoot a lower % on 3s than the Raptors.

    Amare isn't an All-Star. Case closed.
    It doesn't matter that Carmelo and Amare aren't playing up to their usual standards, they are still very good players and my point is that they are the players that other teams design their defense around. I seriously doubt that any team (aside from when Miami decided to stop Linsanity) actually designs their defense around stopping Lin. Carmelo and Amare are still the focal points, even if it's on reputation alone.

    Players like Novak and JR Smith are good shooters, but also just getting the ball inside to Chandler or to guys like Fields for mid-range jumpers, are easy ways to inflate the stats using 3rd, 4th and 5th offensive options. They are also a great defensive team with Chandler anchoring them down low and when they do force a turnover or get a rebound, the entire team looks to run out on odd-man fast breaks, which gives Lin even more chances for gimme assists.

  10. #90
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    I see the pot is calling the kettle black. Go read your comments on page 2.
    Not at all. I'm reserving judgement to when I've seen enough. Been saying that from the get go. I'm a skeptic of Lin's current play and I've seen some flags. I'm saying it's not a wise investment to give him full MLE based on what we've seen, it's not enough time.. You don't need to take this personally. We all want a great team to cheer for.

    As for the "two stars" theory someone tossed on the table. Jason Kapono is a great case study of this. He looked like a stud next to Shaq and Wade. Colangelo opened up the wallet, overpaid and then we discovered (what some of us were saying prior. ) that his play was so great because of the space provided by playing with two superstars. In Lin's case he had the MDA factor and then he later had the luxury of playing with two high profile guys who demand a huge amount of attention. The theory is worth consideration to say the least. The Raptors have already been burned by similar scenarios. In Toronto he's only going to have Bargnani taking heat off of him. That might mean bad news to a PG who has struggled to make teams who run the half court.

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    The problem with the all-star argument is that lots of point guards play with all-stars. Also, both guys (or at least one?) were out when Lin was leading the Knicks to an 8-1 record.

    What it still comes down to is that you can get better value than Lin at $5.8M. We just need to find that guy, because he is currently not on our roster.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  12. #92
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    The problem with the all-star argument is that lots of point guards play with all-stars. Also, both guys (or at least one?) were out when Lin was leading the Knicks to an 8-1 record.

    What it still comes down to is that you can get better value than Lin at $5.8M. We just need to find that guy, because he is currently not on our roster.
    There is no problem with the arguement. I gave you a good example in Kapono. It's on management to sift through the impacts of MDA, Melo and Amare on Lin's game and to determine if he's legit. No one in here can say for sure and I don't think any manager willing to give him full MLE will know for sure by July 1st. Someone will roll the dice and then I'm sure Dolan will match the offer.

  13. #93
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Is Dolan *able* to match *any* offer without Early Bird rights and the Gilbert Arenas Provision?
    your pal,
    ebrian

  14. #94
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Lin is a RFA as far as I know.

  15. #95
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Lin is a RFA as far as I know.
    Yes he is... this was discussed by various journalists when Linsanity broke. NY can match any offer. The most he can make is the MLE but NY can match it (if they want).

  16. #96
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Yes he is... this was discussed by various journalists when Linsanity broke. NY can match any offer. The most he can make is the MLE but NY can match it (if they want).
    But I believe that would mean they lose their MLE to use on any other player. Is this right?

    Given their current payroll, outside of the MLE, Birds Rights, and minimum contracts, they aren't going to have much flexibility to sign players. They have $53M alone tied up in Melo, Amar'e, and Chandler for next year.

  17. #97
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But I believe that would mean they lose their MLE to use on any other player. Is this right?

    Given their current payroll, outside of the MLE, Birds Rights, and minimum contracts, they aren't going to have much flexibility to sign players. They have $53M alone tied up in Melo, Amar'e, and Chandler for next year.
    Yup that's correct... however I read they can keep Fields (because they'll have his Bird rights) but they'll probably have to give up JR Smith.

  18. #98
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Yup that's correct... however I read they can keep Fields (because they'll have his Bird rights) but they'll probably have to give up JR Smith.
    JR is a player option.

  19. #99
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But I believe that would mean they lose their MLE to use on any other player. Is this right?

    Given their current payroll, outside of the MLE, Birds Rights, and minimum contracts, they aren't going to have much flexibility to sign players. They have $53M alone tied up in Melo, Amar'e, and Chandler for next year.
    Their biggest need will be a PG and it would be a PR nightmare to go and bring back a guy like Felton instead after Lin's good half season worth of games.

  20. #100
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Do you even watch basketball? Amar'e is a 6 time nba all star... they are both considered all stars and no matter how bad their season is going the defense is still going to pay much more attention to them than a guy like lin who is at best and average starter.
    There's a difference in being an All-Star and being a formerAll-Star. You can ask anyone around the league what their opinion of Amar'e is and I'm willing to bet that the majority of them do not consider him a top tier talent anymore.
    Your obsession with Lin is is blinding you from the truth. If you like lin soo much why don't you go watch the knicks?
    FYI, I only really watched like 10 minutes of the game last night. The Heat game was much more entertaining to say the least.

    I don't need you to tell me how to watch TV, thanks.

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    It doesn't matter that Carmelo and Amare aren't playing up to their usual standards, they are still very good players and my point is that they are the players that other teams design their defense around. I seriously doubt that any team (aside from when Miami decided to stop Linsanity) actually designs their defense around stopping Lin. Carmelo and Amare are still the focal points, even if it's on reputation alone.
    Way to state the obvious. How this this different from any other team in the NBA?

    For example, the Jazz's most dangerous players are Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap, both of whom having a better season than Amar'e or Melo. It's a no-brainer to conclude that opposing teams design their defense around these two. However, Devin Harris isn't benefiting at all from playing with these two.
    Players like Novak and JR Smith are good shooters,
    JR Smith is a very streaky shooter. He's only good when he gets hot, which isn't very often.
    but also just getting the ball inside to Chandler or to guys like Fields for mid-range jumpers, are easy ways to inflate the stats using 3rd, 4th and 5th offensive options. They are also a great defensive team with Chandler anchoring them down low and when they do force a turnover or get a rebound, the entire team looks to run out on odd-man fast breaks, which gives Lin even more chances for gimme assists.
    Again, the obvious.
    Unless we're talking about playing 3v3 streetball every single team in the league has a 3rd, 4th, and 5th option.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    There is no problem with the arguement. I gave you a good example in Kapono. It's on management to sift through the impacts of MDA, Melo and Amare on Lin's game and to determine if he's legit. No one in here can say for sure and I don't think any manager willing to give him full MLE will know for sure by July 1st. Someone will roll the dice and then I'm sure Dolan will match the offer.
    One irrelevant example (come on now, since when was Kapono a PG?) does not disprove that statement. The keywords were "most PGs".
    Last edited by Prime; Wed Mar 21st, 2012 at 08:44 PM.

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