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Thread: ROGERS/BELL TPE Let down

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default ROGERS/BELL TPE Let down

    Off the top I am disappointed that the Raps could not get in on Flynn or either of the Lakers 1st rnd picks which were clearly all in play and we moved for a decent price (IMO).

    Raptors have been given a grade of A by some for this trade because they essentially rented out Barbos for 23 games and got what looks like a 2nd round pick in approx the 50th spot (Alabi pick back).

    Grade for the Raptors: A

    Toronto got someone to take Barbosa (and Carter) off their hands without taking back any salary at all, while getting a second-round pick in return. It’s an added bonus that they can use the reported $7.6 million trade exception to add a player with a long-term commitment via trade over the next 12 months.
    Even in this deep draft that 2nd likely will amount to another Solomon Alabi unless somehow packaged... who knows ... but there is much talk about the 7.6 mill. Without sounding like too much of a Debbie Downer how likely is BELL/ROGERS willing to authorize the use of that money for a piece?

    ROGERS owns the Jays lets examine:
    2011 salary

    Yankees $202,689,028(team)-------$ 6,756,300 (per player average)
    Boston $161,762,475(team) ---------$5,991,202 (per player average)
    Baltimo $85,304,038------------------$ 3,280,924 (per player average)
    Toronto $62,567,800(team)----------$ 2,018,316 (per player average)

    The two rivals teams are outspending Toronto 3-1 heck even recession ridden ghetto-filled Baltimore is almost double the average player salary.
    Salary Cap space and TPE doesn't mean the same in Toronto as it does in cities where they have win-at-all-costs ownership. If I am not mistaken they left 9mill+ TPE from Bosh deal on the table.

    here is hoping someone proves me wrong.
    Last edited by charlz; Thu Mar 15th, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Baseball is totally different. There essentially is no cap and the Yankees and BoSox make an incredible amount of money. You can't compare the Jays to the Raps, it makes no sense.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Baseball is totally different. There essentially is no cap and the Yankees and BoSox make an incredible amount of money. You can't compare the Jays to the Raps, it makes no sense.
    ok well answer me this: since the introduction of the luxury tax how much have the Raptors spent on it?
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    ok well answer me this: since the introduction of the luxury tax how much have the Raptors spent on it?
    I'm not salary cap expert or anything, but I think in order for you to go over the luxury you would have to retain a lot of players bird's rights which can allow you to spend over the cap. At that point you can then use exceptions like the MLE to acquire more players.

    Usually the most effective way to get into luxury territory is to have a max contract. That's why teams like the Lakers/Spurs/Celtics/etc get there because they have guys like Kobe/Duncan/Garnett making a lot of coin.

    Unlike baseball where there is no cap you have to play within the rules of the salary cap. The Raps biggest issue is not spending money - or else they would not have given Turk $55M or Bargnani $50M - its that no free agent wants to come play for them. They need to create a winning team. Once that happens and if we can hold on to our players when their contracts end, then we can start using the MLE to acquiring more talent.

    If Bosh resigned to a max deal we'd be in luxury territory. We'd have a crappy roster and would be a mediocre team but we'd be a luxury team (or close to one anyways).

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    ok well answer me this: since the introduction of the luxury tax how much have the Raptors spent on it?
    Don't know but what I do know for sure is that in 2001 they had one of the highest payrolls in the league.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Don't know but what I do know for sure is that in 2001 they had one of the highest payrolls in the league.
    true but that was not ROGERS/BELL - and was more than 10 yrs ago
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    true but that was not ROGERS/BELL - and was more than 10 yrs ago
    Well so far, it is hard to make predictions about what Rogers/Bell will do since their ownership of the Raptors started 12/9/2011

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    The concern/question is a bit moot. There is a new cba in place which will make very onerous to get into luxury tax area. Two perennial luxury teams ...the Lakers made deals today with an eye on decreasing payroll and the Mavs for the first time in a long time is under the cap and will be able to sign a max f/a this summer. Prediction: unless desperate or a temporary move, no team will be a tax team in a year or so. This was one of Stern's objectives during the lockout.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    I've been saying this repeatedly in other threads: THERE IS NO TPE. We were under the cap before the trade.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Baseball is totally different. There essentially is no cap and the Yankees and BoSox make an incredible amount of money. You can't compare the Jays to the Raps, it makes no sense.
    fuck yes you can. the yankees and bosox also clearly spend a shitload of cash.

    man, how can you tell me its not fair when bell and rogers were willing to go over 200 million to outbid eachother and got together for 160 million. rogers and bell have a combined 16 or so tv channels that's alot of advertisement money, not to mention both of their internet, telephone, cable, and cellular phone companies.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    true but that was not ROGERS/BELL - and was more than 10 yrs ago
    Ok, you asked for an example and I did my best to give you something without doing your homework for you.

    Moving on, you said the Jays spent $63M last season. If the Raptors spend that much under the new CBA each year then they'll be one of the bigger spenders in the league. Teams are desperately trying to get down under tax right now to beat the looming tax hike. Right now $63M would put the Raptors in the middle of the pack. Two years time it would probably put them in the upper tier of spenders.

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    fuck yes you can. the yankees and bosox also clearly spend a shitload of cash.

    man, how can you tell me its not fair when bell and rogers were willing to go over 200 million to outbid eachother and got together for 160 million. rogers and bell have a combined 16 or so tv channels that's alot of advertisement money, not to mention both of their internet, telephone, cable, and cellular phone companies.
    Yes, I can. You guys are missing the point. The Jays play in a system with virtually no cap. They also play in a division with two of the richest teams in the league. The Raptors play in a soft cap, high tax system. The Jays are free to spend whatever they like but choose not to spend outside their budget. Unfortunately that budget places them at a great disadvantage when compared to the super clubs in their division who have no such restraints. The Raptors, with a similar budget to the Jays, as mentioned above would be in the middle of the pack right now and in a few year would be in the upper tier of spenders. You can't compare apples and oranges no matter if they're sold on the same fruit truck. It makes no sense.

    The Raptors are rebuilding now. They should be at cap by the end of summer FA. Then the summer of 2013 they will be free to use exceptions to move them beyond the cap and closer towards the tax threshold. Most teams over tax threshold are making plays to get below it. All the Raptors need to do is spend like they have in the past when fielding a playoff caliber team and they'll be in the $60M range, around where the Jays are now. It won't be hard for them to get there and with all the young guys coming up for contract extensions over the next five season they will be spending what the Jays are.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Ok, you asked for an example and I did my best to give you something without doing your homework for you.

    Moving on, you said the Jays spent $63M last season. If the Raptors spend that much under the new CBA each year then they'll be one of the bigger spenders in the league. Teams are desperately trying to get down under tax right now to beat the looming tax hike. Right now $63M would put the Raptors in the middle of the pack. Two years time it would probably put them in the upper tier of spenders.
    Yes, I forgot about the Lockout! How could I!?!?!

    The soft cap and luxury tax were frozen for 2 seasons. There is a possibility when the new BRI kicks in for the 2013-2014 season kicks in soft cap and luxury tax could be significantly lower if revenues do not increase enough to off set the lower BRI split for players.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Liston's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Off the top I am disappointed that the Raps could not get in on Flynn or either of the Lakers 1st rnd picks which were clearly all in play and we moved for a decent price (IMO).
    The price was taking on Luke Walton's terrible contract. No thanks. The Lakers will have a late 1st rounder remember.

    Flynn is a terrible PG. Turnover prone and is shooting 29% this year. 29%. Why would you ever want him?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Liston wrote: View Post
    Flynn is a terrible PG. Turnover prone and is shooting 29% this year. 29%. Why would you ever want him?
    Potential.

    Why do people like Gerald Green get drafted at all?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Yes but it's one thing to covet a player because you like his potential but it's another thing to slam a GM for not trading for that player when he hasn't shown any signs of one day meeting this perceived potential. Colangelo didn't go after Johnny Flynn? Ok, why care?... Beyond "I think its a good Hail Mary pass". I guarantee you that had a trade for the kid occurred and Flynn continues on his current career path those same people will be slamming Colangelo later with me for trading for Flynn.

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    To tell you the truth I was a bit worried that the new MLSE was looking to shed money. We don't know what type of owners they will be just yet. Although, since they have taken over we have been 4 million under the cap and we signed some pretty useless players in the off season at veteran minimums. I realize that there is a master plan for this season, and it could be for that reason, but we are not privy to the inside info. So it does creep into my mind a little. We'll know next off season when Bryan has hinted that we will be big players.

    ***I also agree taking Walton's contract for a first rounder is not something that I would have done either***

    I was hoping for a underachieving prospect, like last year with the J.J. trade. Which we gave up a first rounder... we got a 50-55 pick for Barbosa yayyy
    Last edited by saints91; Thu Mar 15th, 2012 at 11:04 PM.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    I realize that there is a master plan for this season, and it could be for that reason, but we are not privy to the inside info. So it does creep into my mind a little. We'll know next off season when Bryan has hinted that we will be big players.
    No we can't read Colangelo's mind but what Colangelo did fits perfectly into the plan he's publicly laid out. What he did makes perfect logical sense. Why invest the money long term in November 2011 when they are still a year away from getting an influx of core long term prospects? There is no reason to doubt the team's desire to win at this point regardless of who's paying the salaries. We question the team when they don't do a proper build and we question them when they are doing a proper build. What do we want?

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