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Thread: "...the draft is arguably the smallest part of building a successful team."

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Here's what you forget though: The Raps traded a former 5th overall (Bender) for Antonio Davis. They traded their former 2nd overall (Camby) for Oakley. So their starting 4/5 (arguably the reason they were able to compete so quickly around Vince), was acquired entirely by trading away high draft picks.
    And how long was that success sustained? In the blink of any eye they were pathetic again.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    And how long was that success sustained? In the blink of any eye they were pathetic again.
    Nice return.
    In Masai we Trust.

  3. #23
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    And how long was that success sustained? In the blink of any eye they were pathetic again.
    Well sure, but look at what actually happened. McGrady left, Okaley got traded and VC and A. Davic started having injury issues. They had a taste of success by drafting well, then a combination of bad luck and bad management knocked them back down to earth. Either way, the only real success the franchise has ever tasted was built on the back of the draft.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    I think Trades, Drafting, Coaching, Management all play an equal part.

    If you only have trades, then you have the early days of the Mark Cuban Mavericks. (Or Championship Boston Celtics.)

    If you only have Drafting, then you're left with the Sacremento Kings. (Or playoff Bound Timberwolves.)

    If you only have Coaching, you're left with the Flip Saunders Wizards.


    Thats what makes the NBA fun. Is that ANY combination of the above, can net you ANY combination of success.
    In Masai we Trust.

  5. #25
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Well sure, but look at what actually happened. McGrady left, Okaley got traded and VC and A. Davic started having injury issues. They had a taste of success by drafting well, then a combination of bad luck and bad management knocked them back down to earth. Either way, the only real success the franchise has ever tasted was built on the back of the draft.
    Wait a second here, you're missing some key points. When Oak got to Toronto he was 35 years old, well past his prime. He left at age 37 when most players have already retired.

    Davis got to Toronto at age 31 and similar to Oak, when he left he was at an age where most players are retiring.

    When Carter was traded the team had already crumbled by Grunwald's choice to try and rope together older veteran pieces developed by other organizations in exchange for highly promising prospects. You failed to mention the reason why Carter was traded. The main reason essentially was his displeasure in the team's performance. It was a lot more complicated than that but one could argue that the other stuff would not have tailspinned out of control had management been stronger and more cohesive by sticking to development, focused on long term growth on a unified front.

    One could argue had they stuck to continuing to draft well and focusing on committing to a plan and optimizing their strategies to serve that plan they might have eventually built something that could survive a stretch of bad luck.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I think Trades, Drafting, Coaching, Management all play an equal part.

    If you only have trades, then you have the early days of the Mark Cuban Mavericks. (Or Championship Boston Celtics.)

    If you only have Drafting, then you're left with the Sacremento Kings. (Or playoff Bound Timberwolves.)

    If you only have Coaching, you're left with the Flip Saunders Wizards.


    Thats what makes the NBA fun. Is that ANY combination of the above, can net you ANY combination of success.
    We have coaching and Drafting. So i say thats a good combo, i say we become a deep playoff team in a season or 2.

  7. #27
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    One could argue had they stuck to continuing to draft well and focusing on committing to a plan and optimizing their strategies to serve that plan they might have eventually built something that could survive a stretch of bad luck.
    Fully agree. I was only trying to counter the point that the Raps had success without drafting well, which I disagree with.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Doug Smith is an idiot.
    He's a puppet. An idiot of a puppet. That's it.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    ... Either way, the only real success the franchise has ever tasted was built on the back of the draft.
    I would say trading away Bender was more management then having a good piece acquired in the draft. Bender was the walking definition of suckage.

  10. #30
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    "...the draft is arguably the smallest part of building a successful team."
    in one way, i think the statement is total horseshit, because it is, in fact, total horseshit.

    and in another way, i think the statement has some truth to it, because you are all arguing about it

  11. #31
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, adding the word 'arguably' in front of a stupid statement doesn't make it any less stupid.

  12. #32
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately, adding the word 'arguably' in front of a stupid statement doesn't make it any less stupid.

    Well, here is the list of finalists for the NBA championships since 2000

    Los Angeles Lakers Indiana Pacers
    Los Angeles Lakers Philadelphia 76ers
    Los Angeles Lakers New Jersey Nets
    San Antonio Spurs New Jersey Nets
    Los Angeles Lakers Detroit Pistons
    San Antonio Spurs Detroit Pistons
    Dallas Mavericks Miami Heat
    San Antonio Spurs Cleveland Cavaliers
    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Los Angeles Lakers Orlando Magic
    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Dallas Mavericks Miami Heat

    I don't see the draft, or more specifically, having good drafting position, being a huge factor in any of those teams success, outside of Cleveland.

    All of those teams have managed to find a nice piece or two in the draft over that span of time, but that is more a factor of good scouting and/or smart management trades (packaging late first round picks with other assets) than good drafting position. I make the assumption, given the context of the comment Smith was responding to (changing the ping pong ball distribution) that draft position was the main point in his reply.

    An extreme example would be LA, which has made it to the finals 11 times in 24 years since 1985 when the lottery draft was first instituted. I those 26 years only 20 teams have made it to the finals, in 52 opportunities.

    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Houston Rockets Detroit Pistons
    Portland Trail Blazers Orlando Magic
    Phoenix Suns Chicago Bulls
    Houston Rockets Orlando Magic
    Seattle SuperSonics New York Knicks
    Utah Jazz Philadelphia 76ers
    San Antonio Spurs Indiana Pacers
    Dallas Mavericks New Jersey Nets
    Miami Heat Cleveland Cavaliers

    There is no doubt that finishing badly for several years helped about half of those teams, but the other half made multiple appearances, built on a tradition of being good teams, with many play-off appearances, and consequently, many seasons outside of the lottery.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Well, here is the list of finalists for the NBA championships since 2000

    Los Angeles Lakers Indiana Pacers
    Los Angeles Lakers Philadelphia 76ers
    Los Angeles Lakers New Jersey Nets
    San Antonio Spurs New Jersey Nets
    Los Angeles Lakers Detroit Pistons
    San Antonio Spurs Detroit Pistons
    Dallas Mavericks Miami Heat
    San Antonio Spurs Cleveland Cavaliers
    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Los Angeles Lakers Orlando Magic
    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Dallas Mavericks Miami Heat

    I don't see the draft, or more specifically, having good drafting position, being a huge factor in any of those teams success, outside of Cleveland.

    All of those teams have managed to find a nice piece or two in the draft over that span of time, but that is more a factor of good scouting and/or smart management trades (packaging late first round picks with other assets) than good drafting position. I make the assumption, given the context of the comment Smith was responding to (changing the ping pong ball distribution) that draft position was the main point in his reply.

    An extreme example would be LA, which has made it to the finals 11 times in 24 years since 1985 when the lottery draft was first instituted. I those 26 years only 20 teams have made it to the finals, in 52 opportunities.

    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Houston Rockets Detroit Pistons
    Portland Trail Blazers Orlando Magic
    Phoenix Suns Chicago Bulls
    Houston Rockets Orlando Magic
    Seattle SuperSonics New York Knicks
    Utah Jazz Philadelphia 76ers
    San Antonio Spurs Indiana Pacers
    Dallas Mavericks New Jersey Nets
    Miami Heat Cleveland Cavaliers

    There is no doubt that finishing badly for several years helped about half of those teams, but the other half made multiple appearances, built on a tradition of being good teams, with many play-off appearances, and consequently, many seasons outside of the lottery.
    I think the Lakers Pistons are the exception to the rule.

    Philly had Iverson - #1.

    The Nets had Martin (#1) and Jefferson (#13 acquired by trading their #7 pick).

    Spurs had Duncan #1 and earlier Robinson #1.

    Dallas had Dirk #9 - which they used their #6 pick to acquire.

    Heat had Wade #5 - there would be no LBJ in South Beach without Wade.

    Cleveland - #1 LBJ - as you mentioned.

    Boston - Pierce was #10 and #5 was used to acquire Ray Allen.

    Orlando, Howard, #1.



    Take out Dallas (barely), Detroit, and the Lakers and they all had a top 5 pick in common as a centre piece to their success.

  14. #34
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the Lakers Pistons are the exception to the rule.

    Philly had Iverson - #1.

    The Nets had Martin (#1) and Jefferson (#13 acquired by trading their #7 pick).

    Spurs had Duncan #1 and earlier Robinson #1.

    Dallas had Dirk #9 - which they used their #6 pick to acquire.

    Heat had Wade #5 - there would be no LBJ in South Beach without Wade.

    Cleveland - #1 LBJ - as you mentioned.

    Boston - Pierce was #10 and #5 was used to acquire Ray Allen.

    Orlando, Howard, #1.



    Take out Dallas (barely), Detroit, and the Lakers and they all had a top 5 pick in common as a centre piece to their success.

    No argument from here, but most of the teams you listed managed to get one outstanding draft pick, and then kept a position as one of the premier teams in their conference for years. The Spurs lucked out with the Duncan, Robinson deal, getting two high picks in consecutive years, just as the Raptors will be doing this coming draft.

    Actually, with a #1 pick five years ago, and two consecutive lottery picks (last year and this) the Raptors are positioned to do well in the next few years, as we keep telling ourselves. But most teams have not had that opportunity.

    I guess it depends on how important you figure getting one top five pick every 6-7 years is. No one thinks it's not a combination of the three items mentioned already, draft position, management and free agent destination desirability. The question would be how much weight do you put on each element.

    I would think that Lakers, New York, Boston and Miami are the cream of FA destination spots. So that factor is important for those teams.

    For everybody else I think I would rank them as
    1.) Management and staff (includes scouting to maximize your drafting opportunities in less desirable draft positions)
    2.) Draft position
    3.) Free agent desirability

    Last one is really a mute point because I think most US NBA players would pretty much go to any NBA city with no problem, outside of maybe Toronto, Minny, Oklahoma. Money would be the gamer changer in the last factor and THAT is important if you don't have the revenue to happily pay the luxury tax.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    My thoughts?

    The draft is very important, but where you pick is not nearly as important as how you pick, or how you choose to use that pick. SO ultimately, I would agree with the statement, DRAFT POSITION is arguably the least important way to build a team, especially because the top 3 are chosen by the ping pong balls.

    Good scouting (over a long time line) will produce a better return with the draft pick than bad scouting. Good management is way more important than draft picks, because a badly managed team will just trade/lose any good players they draft in a bad trade or free agency.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  16. #36
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    Just what I was trying to say, only I was able to cram more words in.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Whats with the Doug hate? I dont agree with this statement, but I enjoy reading his blog almost daily.

  18. #38
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Wow, there is a lot of hate for Doug Smith. I'll come to his defense. Yeah, his own opinions on basketball topics may be well off the mark at times but he also brings a lot of information to the table you otherwise wouldn't get. You're better off with him than without him... Unless of course you don't enjoy reading little tidbits he offers up through talking to this person or that person in the organization.

    I'm with enlightenment on this one. His blog is usually a good read.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    I disagree adamantly with Dougie. The draft is extremely important-the most important part-of team building.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    I find Doug very reliable when it comes to sources and backroom information, he's also very witty and entertaining to read about.

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