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Thread: "...the draft is arguably the smallest part of building a successful team."

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    I disagree adamantly with Dougie. The draft is extremely important-the most important part-of team building.
    If you do a good job with your two lottery picks, you won't be seeing the lottery again for years, and will be selecting in the 20's.

    How important is the draft then? Compared to trades and coaching?

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    If you do a good job with your two lottery picks, you won't be seeing the lottery again for years, and will be selecting in the 20's.

    How important is the draft then? Compared to trades and coaching?
    markedly less so, because you've already drafted franchise talent

    i mean the very first part of your post inherently acknowledges what a patently and objectively false statement doug's is, so i don't follow how you're arguing for it
    Last edited by chris; Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 05:00 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    markedly less so, because you've already drafted franchise talent

    i mean the very first part of your post inherently acknowledges what a patently and objectively false statement doug's is, so i don't follow how you're arguing for it
    There are 8 lottery picks every year. Most of those picks stay in the league for 5 - 6 years. So that's 40 - 48 lottery picks. How many turn out to be true franchise players? How many of those 48 aren't even starters 3 year later?

    Never said it didn't hurt to have good position picking. But a lot of franchise players have been picked by good GM's selecting from spot number 9 on down. Personally I would rather have the management smarts working on the side of the team I am rooting for. Then you might wind up with a team the "franchise player" bolts to after his rookie contract is up.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I think Trades, Drafting, Coaching, Management all play an equal part.

    If you only have trades, then you have the early days of the Mark Cuban Mavericks. (Or Championship Boston Celtics.)

    If you only have Drafting, then you're left with the Sacremento Kings. (Or playoff Bound Timberwolves.)

    If you only have Coaching, you're left with the Flip Saunders Wizards.


    Thats what makes the NBA fun. Is that ANY combination of the above, can net you ANY combination of success.
    Totally agree.

    I think D. Smith's comment was taken slightly out of context. First of all, he said "building" a successful team, not "rebuilding" so i dont think he was necessarily referring to the Raps. Also, if you think of it in terms of a team on the fringe of being successful, then draft picks are a small part of such a team. If its a team like the Raps, then picks are a huge part of the building process. I do hope after this draft, we never ever get a lottery pick again.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    There are 8 lottery picks every year. Most of those picks stay in the league for 5 - 6 years. So that's 40 - 48 lottery picks. How many turn out to be true franchise players? How many of those 48 aren't even starters 3 year later?

    Never said it didn't hurt to have good position picking. But a lot of franchise players have been picked by good GM's selecting from spot number 9 on down. Personally I would rather have the management smarts working on the side of the team I am rooting for. Then you might wind up with a team the "franchise player" bolts to after his rookie contract is up.
    And the question arises, if say the Raptors get lucky and land the #1 pick in this season's draft, and the Blazers offer Batum (im using him as an example since everybody here seems to love him) in exchange for the #1 pick, would you do it?

    I think this is the perfect example of the argument, which is better, draft or trades

  6. #46
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Well, here is the list of finalists for the NBA championships since 2000

    Los Angeles Lakers Indiana Pacers
    Los Angeles Lakers Philadelphia 76ers
    Los Angeles Lakers New Jersey Nets
    San Antonio Spurs New Jersey Nets
    Los Angeles Lakers Detroit Pistons
    San Antonio Spurs Detroit Pistons
    Dallas Mavericks Miami Heat
    San Antonio Spurs Cleveland Cavaliers
    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Los Angeles Lakers Orlando Magic
    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Dallas Mavericks Miami Heat

    I don't see the draft, or more specifically, having good drafting position, being a huge factor in any of those teams success, outside of Cleveland.

    All of those teams have managed to find a nice piece or two in the draft over that span of time, but that is more a factor of good scouting and/or smart management trades (packaging late first round picks with other assets) than good drafting position. I make the assumption, given the context of the comment Smith was responding to (changing the ping pong ball distribution) that draft position was the main point in his reply.

    An extreme example would be LA, which has made it to the finals 11 times in 24 years since 1985 when the lottery draft was first instituted. I those 26 years only 20 teams have made it to the finals, in 52 opportunities.

    Los Angeles Lakers Boston Celtics
    Houston Rockets Detroit Pistons
    Portland Trail Blazers Orlando Magic
    Phoenix Suns Chicago Bulls
    Houston Rockets Orlando Magic
    Seattle SuperSonics New York Knicks
    Utah Jazz Philadelphia 76ers
    San Antonio Spurs Indiana Pacers
    Dallas Mavericks New Jersey Nets
    Miami Heat Cleveland Cavaliers

    There is no doubt that finishing badly for several years helped about half of those teams, but the other half made multiple appearances, built on a tradition of being good teams, with many play-off appearances, and consequently, many seasons outside of the lottery.

    Two points:

    1. The time between drafting a player and winning a title isn't overnight. Dallas got Dirk on a draft-day deal (or thereabouts), same with Kobe, and the Spurs had Duncan. Did they win a title immediately? No. Did they win it with the people they got on draft day? yes.

    2. You're comparing apples and oranges. The teams you listed can all attract free-agents, the Raptors cannot. Hence, drafting is even more important for the Raptors than teams who can afford to play the FA market. It's not a surprise that the very light success this franchise has had was on the backs of drafted players - Vince Carter, T-Mac, and not free-agents - Hedo Turkoglu, Jermaine O'Neal, etc.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    I think what Puffer is insinuating is once you get that franchise player, it doesnt make sense relying on the draft year after year to get talent. But i agree with Arse, the Raptors need this draft, heck, until they get a franchise player, they need to rely heavily on the draft.

    Having said that, i would still trade that #1 pick if i was offered a franchise player in return.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think what Puffer is insinuating is once you get that franchise player, it doesnt make sense relying on the draft year after year to get talent. But i agree with Arse, the Raptors need this draft, heck, until they get a franchise player, they need to rely heavily on the draft.

    Having said that, i would still trade that #1 pick if i was offered a franchise player in return.
    OKC might disagree. Durant in '07, Westbrook in '08, and Harden in '09 - pick 1, 4, and 3 respectively.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    OKC might disagree. Durant in '07, Westbrook in '08, and Harden in '09 - pick 1, 4, and 3 respectively.
    I think we've gone through the OKC situation numerous times in the forum.

    I maybe wrong, but those 3 draft picks probably cost Seattle their franchise.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think we've gone through the OKC situation numerous times in the forum.

    I maybe wrong, but those 3 draft picks probably cost Seattle their franchise.
    The lack of a state-of-the-art arena cost Seattle their franchise. The success of Oklahoma City hosting the New Orleans Hornets after Katrina probably had an impact on that relocation as well.

    Off the top of my head:

    Shaq in Orlando. Next year they get #1 and trade Webber for Penney Hardaway who was #3.

    Aldridge and Roy in Portland. Next year Oden #1. Didn't quite work out due to injury but, man, what if.

    Kevin Love in Minnesota. Next year Rubio.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The lack of a state-of-the-art arena cost Seattle their franchise. The success of Oklahoma City hosting the New Orleans Hornets after Katrina probably had an impact on that relocation as well.

    Off the top of my head:

    Shaq in Orlando. Next year they get #1 and trade Webber for Penney Hardaway who was #3.

    Aldridge and Roy in Portland. Next year Oden #1. Didn't quite work out due to injury but, man, what if.

    Kevin Love in Minnesota. Next year Rubio.
    9 out 10 years of losing seasons werent able to get them the funding, i believe.

    True...

  12. #52
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Two points:

    1. The time between drafting a player and winning a title isn't overnight. Dallas got Dirk on a draft-day deal (or thereabouts), same with Kobe, and the Spurs had Duncan. Did they win a title immediately? No. Did they win it with the people they got on draft day? yes.

    2. You're comparing apples and oranges. The teams you listed can all attract free-agents, the Raptors cannot. Hence, drafting is even more important for the Raptors than teams who can afford to play the FA market. It's not a surprise that the very light success this franchise has had was on the backs of drafted players - Vince Carter, T-Mac, and not free-agents - Hedo Turkoglu, Jermaine O'Neal, etc.
    Vince Carter was acquired via a trade; we drafted Antwan Jamison.

  13. #53
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    The Rubio pick was acquired by Minnesota via a trade with Washington for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

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    Houston drafted Ralph Samson in 1983 and then redefined the word tank the following season to win a 50% chance at the privilege of drafting Hakeem Olajuwon.

    I was always curious whether Houston would have been a better team than Chicago had Sampson not been injured.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Been an interesting discussion. I'm not personally convinced that Drafting is the most important element of a teams success, but it probably isn't the least important either.

    What messes things up is when teams get good drafting position, and then their management team makes bad selections. Contrariwise, teams drafting in worst position often get excellent picks that were flying under the radar, or that are solid role players that every team wants five years down the road, making trades possible when the team is trying to fill holes in the roster.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    The Rubio pick was acquired by Minnesota via a trade with Washington for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.
    True but they had their #6 pick, ironically another PG. Did anyone ever hear about that? lol

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Been an interesting discussion. I'm not personally convinced that Drafting is the most important element of a teams success, but it probably isn't the least important either.

    What messes things up is when teams get good drafting position, and then their management team makes bad selections. Contrariwise, teams drafting in worst position often get excellent picks that were flying under the radar, or that are solid role players that every team wants five years down the road, making trades possible when the team is trying to fill holes in the roster.
    I agree it has been a good discussion.

    I still definitely disagree with the draft being arguably the smallest part of building a successful team. A lot of things go in to building a successful team but I don't think the draft is the least of them. The draft gives struggling teams their best shot at young, talented players.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree it has been a good discussion.

    I still definitely disagree with the draft being arguably the smallest part of building a successful team. A lot of things go in to building a successful team but I don't think the draft is the least of them. The draft gives struggling teams their best shot at young, talented players.
    Matt, would you trade a #1 pick for an allstar/superstar?

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Matt, would you trade a #1 pick for an allstar/superstar?
    Depends on the player. Age, position, need would all play a factor.

    Also there is a big difference between allstar and superstar.

    How solid the #1 is also plays a role - is he consensus? Or a year like 2006 with no clear #1.

  20. #60
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    I can only imagine what kind of amazing things we'll see next season from the raps

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