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Thread: Everything Tanking ;) Raptor still have a long shot at 3rd worst record...

  1. #1
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    Default Everything Tanking ;) Raptor still have a long shot at 3rd worst record...

    The current draft lottery system needs to be fixed in a big way. All this tanking is ultimately bad for business.

    My fix (until I think of something better): All teams get one ball. The first 5 balls that come up are the first 5 picks and then picks 6 onward are determined by worst records. Every team plays to get into the playoffs, losing is not necessarily rewarded, tanking becomes a non issue.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    I say just put one ball in for each team and get the Commish to pick balls from 1 to 30 for the first round.

    Let the 2nd round be determined by win-lose record.

    I really dont see why successful teams shouldnt be given the chance to draft high. Its not like they draft high, players would lineup to play with them. This is already happening even without high draft picks anyways.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    The current draft lottery system needs to be fixed in a big way. All this tanking is ultimately bad for business.

    My fix (until I think of something better): All teams get one ball. The first 5 balls that come up are the first 5 picks and then picks 6 onward are determined by worst records. Every team plays to get into the playoffs, losing is not necessarily rewarded, tanking becomes a non issue.
    And you'd be happy when Miami gets to Draft Anthony Davis?
    The whole idea of the Draft is to give Losing Clubs a chance to turn around their fortunes.
    Not to help Winning teams maintain dominance.

    This idea is horrible. Sorry to be so blunt.
    As you lay it out, I suppose it makes sense, but so does Communism.

    I believe the team with the worst record has won the Lottery all of 3 times, (thats a total guess, but probably fairly accurate.)

    There is no solution to both the Problem of "how to fix you bad teams" and "how do you avoid tanking".
    It's one or the other.

    And I believe the league is more concerned with making Bad teams Good again, than they are with Bad teams pretending to be worse.
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    The current draft lottery system needs to be fixed in a big way. All this tanking is ultimately bad for business.

    My fix (until I think of something better): All teams get one ball. The first 5 balls that come up are the first 5 picks and then picks 6 onward are determined by worst records. Every team plays to get into the playoffs, losing is not necessarily rewarded, tanking becomes a non issue.
    I disagree. The lottery weights in the favor of those who need influx of talent the most but there are no guarantees and the worst team rarely gets the top pick. This system is far more balanced than say NFL football which uses inverted standings to determine the order. I'm happy with how the NBA draft works. The bad teams need help and counter to Doug Smith, the draft is very important to develpment of a team in most cases.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Yup, the current system is designed to help improve poor teams. Why would we change that?

    Having a few teams "tank" every season is far more tolerable than the disparity that would result with the suggested scenarios above.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    My idea was inspired from a Jeff Van Gundy interview. Why should bad performance or to be more blunt, intentional losing be rewarded? The NBA is putting out some horrible product out there depending on what the match up is. Perhaps 50% of the teams could be looked at for possible tanking. Those teams that have no hope of making the playoffs and the marginal playoff teams also looking to stay or drop into a lottery position.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Apparently the NHL was tinkering with the idea of having a points-based system to determine lottery balls. That is, once a team is mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, every win they accrue from that point on, goes towards their lottery fund. In such a scenario, teams have motivation to win games down the stretch, even if the playoffs are a pipe dream.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Fanchie's Avatar
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    What about a playoff bracket for losing teams ?

    14 lottery teams ranked from 1 to 14 based on W/L record.

    Best 2 teams are exempted of 1st round, teams 3-14 play to go to last 8 in a single game, March madness style.

    At the end, winner of the bracket gets pick #1, finalist gets #2, #3 and #4 are determined by a "losers' game". Then from #5, you go as usual (from worst to best record).

    Cool things about this :

    # Teams will fight for their seed til the end of the season
    # All teams get a bit of postseason action
    # Sure, best teams (or should i say least sucking teams) are advantaged, but everything can happen in a single game.

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    The lottery was built to stop teams from attentionally tanking. It used to use the NFL style but they introduced this style which I think works. Since 1985 the last placed team has won it 4 times, 2nd last 4 times, 3rd last 5 times, 4 worst - 0, 5th worst- 5 times, 6 th worst 3 times, and so on. The 11th worst team has actually won the lottery. It's a good system, and I think it gives the league parody.

    It still allows some tanking, but it still gives the teams that aren't a fair chance to improve.
    Last edited by saints91; Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 01:48 PM.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Apparently the NHL was tinkering with the idea of having a points-based system to determine lottery balls. That is, once a team is mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, every win they accrue from that point on, goes towards their lottery fund. In such a scenario, teams have motivation to win games down the stretch, even if the playoffs are a pipe dream.
    Whoa ... this just blew my mind.
    I've spent 4 minutes trying to find a flaw in this system, and have yet to do so.
    If I can't find one in 4 minutes, then there likely isn't one. hahah
    In Masai we Trust.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    My idea was inspired from a Jeff Van Gundy interview. Why should bad performance or to be more blunt, intentional losing be rewarded? The NBA is putting out some horrible product out there depending on what the match up is. Perhaps 50% of the teams could be looked at for possible tanking. Those teams that have no hope of making the playoffs and the marginal playoff teams also looking to stay or drop into a lottery position.
    From a moral perspective, you're right. Intentional losing shouldn't be rewarded.

    But from a business perspective, you need the current system to give each market an "opportunity" to compete.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Whoa ... this just blew my mind.
    I've spent 4 minutes trying to find a flaw in this system, and have yet to do so.
    If I can't find one in 4 minutes, then there likely isn't one. hahah
    Unfortunately, it's human nature to resist change (no matter how much it makes sense). And this since scenario is so drastically different than anything we've seen before, it's almost guaranteed to never happen
    Last edited by Nilanka; Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 01:59 PM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    My idea was inspired from a Jeff Van Gundy interview. Why should bad performance or to be more blunt, intentional losing be rewarded? The NBA is putting out some horrible product out there depending on what the match up is. Perhaps 50% of the teams could be looked at for possible tanking. Those teams that have no hope of making the playoffs and the marginal playoff teams also looking to stay or drop into a lottery position.
    The product is not going to get better without giving less talented team an opportunity to receive a talent influx.

    I like the way the current system is currently set up.

    The real issue here might be contraction if the goal is to put out a good product across each of the teams in the league. More talent on less teams will lead to a better product, in my opinion.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Apparently the NHL was tinkering with the idea of having a points-based system to determine lottery balls. That is, once a team is mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, every win they accrue from that point on, goes towards their lottery fund. In such a scenario, teams have motivation to win games down the stretch, even if the playoffs are a pipe dream.
    That is interesting.

    So teams will start the season 3-38 and then really come on strong over the last 41 games

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is interesting.

    So teams will start the season 3-38 and then really come on strong over the last 41 games
    Hahaha And there is the 'flaw' I was looking for. Thanks Matt!
    It'd be a race to see who can be eliminated from the Playoffs first.

    But I guess since that makes very little FINANCIAL sense, its a little less of an option.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote Fanchie wrote: View Post
    What about a playoff bracket for losing teams ?

    14 lottery teams ranked from 1 to 14 based on W/L record.

    Best 2 teams are exempted of 1st round, teams 3-14 play to go to last 8 in a single game, March madness style.

    At the end, winner of the bracket gets pick #1, finalist gets #2, #3 and #4 are determined by a "losers' game". Then from #5, you go as usual (from worst to best record).

    Cool things about this :

    # Teams will fight for their seed til the end of the season
    # All teams get a bit of postseason action
    # Sure, best teams (or should i say least sucking teams) are advantaged, but everything can happen in a single game.
    I really like this idea... as would the NBA and most teams, as it would create more games and excitement for all teams.. leading to more revenue. And everyone wants a way to create more revenue.

    The only problem with this is that the worst teams now have pretty bad odds of getting the first 3-4 picks. They need a handicap to INCREASE their odds in winning this mini tournament.
    Maybe the worse 2 teams get the By!?!

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Hahaha And there is the 'flaw' I was looking for. Thanks Matt!
    It'd be a race to see who can be eliminated from the Playoffs first.

    But I guess since that makes very little FINANCIAL sense, its a little less of an option.
    I like the idea though. Realistically most teams are going balls out in the first couple of months. In a normal season it is usually not until January when teams start to lose faith, hope, effort, or whatever you want to call it..... oh yeah, tank.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Without defeating the key principal of the draft You'll never find a way to prevent teams from cutting talent so that they're even more outmatched down the stretch.

    The idea of having them awarded a better slot for winning games after being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs runs counter to the point of the draft. Teams get high draft picks in part due to their lack of competitiveness. Flipping the concept at the last moment to me seems... Well, stupid. I think the draft is as good as it gets.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Hahaha And there is the 'flaw' I was looking for. Thanks Matt!
    It'd be a race to see who can be eliminated from the Playoffs first.

    But I guess since that makes very little FINANCIAL sense, its a little less of an option.
    Yeah, that's not REALLY a flaw. In order for a team to be mathematically eliminated from the playoffs by game 41, that team would have to lose all 41 games, AND the top eight teams would have to go undefeated over those same 41 games. NOT gonna happen...it's literally impossible as those teams have to play each other at some point.

    The awarding points per win after mathematical elimination is pure genius. Sure, the first teams eliminated would have more chances to build that point total, but seeing as they are the worst teams, they need those extra chances. That being said, since they are so bad, they probably won't win many of those games, potentially giving those that are mathematically eliminated later a good chance to "catch up" to the truly awful.

    The only true down side I see is that scheduling becomes important down the stretch. If an awful team gets stuck playing top caliber teams to the end of the season, the chance of accruing points would be slim.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Whoa ... this just blew my mind.
    I've spent 4 minutes trying to find a flaw in this system, and have yet to do so.
    If I can't find one in 4 minutes, then there likely isn't one. hahah
    The only down side I can think of immediately is what it would do to the trade deadline and the notion of "buyers" and "sellers". Not only is there "tanking", but being eliminated from the playoffs gives teams the opportunity to unload bad contracts, veteran players, etc... that a team's fanbase wouldn't accept prior to or during the season, but suddenly encourage once they are in "looking forward" mode.

    While not perfect, I think the NBA draft lottery is the best system from among the 4 major sports leagues, for improving teams and at least attempting to avoid all-out tanking.

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